Posted by MonkeyPunchBaby So I have a question. Whats the difference between christians or other faiths saying you're wrong, fucking retarded, a fool, a moron and etc etc etc for not being a member of their faith and people who are not members of a religion saying you're wrong, fucking retarded, a fool, a moron and etc etc etc for not subscribing to their beliefs?

nothing.

Posted by Samurai nothing.

then why do it? its like you're an evangelical atheist. which is weird...

Posted by MonkeyPunchBaby then why do it? its like you're an evangelical atheist. which is weird...

COMBATIVE atheist.
and it's just that i think religious people are nuts.

hell, my mother is one of the most intelligent people i know and yet she's a fucking loon. She sits there and wastes all this fucking time praying to this invisible friend. It's a joke. god should be spelled j-o-k-e!

Posted by Samurai COMBATIVE atheist. and it's just that i think religious people are nuts. hell, my mother is one of the most intelligent people i know and yet she's a fucking loon. She sits there and wastes all this fucking time praying to this invisible friend. It's a joke. god should be spelled j-o-k-e!

you and i have had our discussions and i know you are far smarter than this. is believing in god a problem? is your moms religion counterproductive to anything? is she hurting anything or anyone? you have your beliefs which are different from hers, but you're not hurting anyone and nor is she. i dont see why people hate others who are not a member of their faith. my view on religion has always been as long as you are a decent human being you go to heaven. i mean if ghandi cant get to heaven what chance do i have? i think we are all in this together and we just wanna know what the fuck is going on. no one is right or wrong. we all just have our own thing to help us make it through the day. for me its my son. for your mom it may be her religion. for you its pigs(i dont know you well enough to know, but you seem to like pigs). who the fuck knows whats really going on? but is believing in something that is supposed to make you a better person such a bad thing?

Posted by MonkeyPunchBaby you and i have had our discussions and i know you are far smarter than this.

whatever gave you that idea?
no no no... let me clarify, i'm sick of being diplomatic over things that annoy me. Religion is about number three or four on my list of things that bother me. I think its madness to believe in an invisible friend. If people spent as much time working on our collective problems by investing rational thought into them as they do praying for them to go away or have their invisible friend fix them, don't you think we'd be in a far better place?

of course not... instead, we get people asking themselves, seriously, what would jesus do?

Posted by MonkeyPunchBaby So I have a question. Whats the difference between christians or other faiths saying you're wrong, fucking retarded, a fool, a moron and etc etc etc for not being a member of their faith and people who are not members of a religion saying you're wrong, fucking retarded, a fool, a moron and etc etc etc for not subscribing to their beliefs?

Occam's Razor, in multiple ways, many of which have been hashed out here over and over, but how about this one...

Each religious group says that all of the others are wrong... maybe in detail or degree, maybe in the number of gods, or maybe just the nature of gods. You can take years of advanced apologetics study to try to deal with the inherent contradictions and conflicts within a single religion, let alone argue against another. The atheist viewpoint solves the problem very cleanly and simply.

Posted by Samurai If people spent as much time working on our collective problems by investing rational thought into them as they do praying for them to go away or have their invisible friend fix them, don't you think we'd be in a far better place? of course not... instead, we get people asking themselves, seriously, what would jesus do?

i dont think people are sitting there going, should i pray or donate my time to help people? its not one or the other. its not like people spend all their day praying and not helping anyone at all. I don't know what experiences you have had but they are sadly not representative of most religious people. To believe every christian attends the Westboro Baptist Church or every muslim is part of al qada is pretty narrow minded. You mentioned before that you have a friend who is a preacher. Is he bad? does he waste his time and rely on his invisible friend to fix things? or has he actually done some good?

Posted by MonkeyPunchBaby i dont think people are sitting there going, should i pray or donate my time to help people? its not one or the other. its not like people spend all their day praying and not helping anyone at all. I don't know what experiences you have had but they are sadly not representative of most religious people.

you can think that, but i know better.

To believe every christian attends the Westboro Baptist Church

no, but mania is still mania, some are just better adjusted than others. Fred Phelps and his happy time friends are on par with a pack of rabid dogs that need to be put down.

or every muslim is part of al qada

most people in america aren't smart enough to make the distinction... again, in my opinion, muslims are just as nuts as christians even BEFORE they start blowing shit up.

is pretty narrow minded.

irony alert!

You mentioned before that you have a friend who is a preacher.

No, he was a priest. Big difference. And to him, it was a job. If you believe in what he was selling, fine. If not, well, that was fine too.

Is he bad? does he waste his time and rely on his invisible friend to fix things? or has he actually done some good?

his job had nothing to do with what kind of person he was. the old invisible friend had nothing to do with keeping a band of teenage malcontents from going off the rails into the really fun stuff of adolescent experience. In other words, he was dude first, god peddler second.

Well, Sam, what do you make of folks like me? I believe in God. I'm Christian. I don't force my beliefs on anyone. I don't bring up religion unless its asked of me, or if I do out of curiosity, I try to be as non confronting as possible. I love everyone, even people that I want to kill I have gay friends, I believe that everyone has the ability to become or do anything they desire. I know it pains you that some of us believe, but I don't spend all day praying my fuel pump fixes itself, I get out there and do it. I may pray to God for the patience to do it, but I DO IT. Its not Gods job to win the lottery for me, pay my bills, or feed me. I only ask God to help me get through the times where I am troubled, or to help someone else out. Hell Sam, I have said prayers about you. Not to convert you, or to make you do something you have no wish to do, but to ease your suffering recently, and a little while back. You know what I'm talking about, no need to bring it up here. Did it make a difference? Who knows. I would like to think it did, but it may not have. But the end result is I didn't hurt you, I didn't cause or wish you any ill will. But based on my beliefs, it was the right thing to do. So is helping out at the homeless shelter, stopping and helping someone with a flat, and saying something nice, when I could easily whip out a smart ass comment. I don't know Sam, you say how ironic it is he calls you narrow minded, but I'm guessing your opinion of me dropped greatly when you found out I have an "invisible friend". And that I was conservative

Either way, love ya like a brother I never met hoss, take care.

never said that.

now, a person's esteem is different.
if you believe in god, keep it yourself and keep the pompous shit to a minimum, fine. Start preaching or trying to sell me, that's where bad things happen. In reality, should any of us come face to face, there is a 99.999999% probability that religion will never come up. Same with politics.

it would be nice if the religious lunatics in this fucking country would stop trying to tell the rest of us how to fucking live and mind their own business.

Posted by Soldat BA ZING! So clever, but with no substance.

Actually that's all the substance religion deserves.

I'll start being nice to people's invisible friends as soon as they get him outta my government. Period.
That includes getting marriage regulation and bennies out.
And regulating medical procedures.
And treating churches the same way we do every other publisher and broadcaster that specializes in fiction (tax 'um!).
I could go on, but that for a start.

I especially find the idea that religion makes people more caring, compassionate, and willing to aid their fellow man. The history of faith throughout time does not support this position. What kinda irks me about having to say this is you know this Soldat. At least you seem to know your history so I'm giving you credit for knowing it. Pretty much every religion has taken advantage of it's position (when given the upper hand to do so) and abused the hell outta minority groups (religious, ethnic, geographic, whatever the specific case may have been each time). And this isn't just a hatchet job on christians, almost every religion has pulled this trick when given the opportunity.

Now, there is a normal defence from the flock for these past actions...
#1-"get over it, that happened a long time ago". And that is a valid defence if the oppressive conduct has stopped. If it hasn't (Defense of Marriage Act?) then it is not.
#2 - "those people weren't good followers of (insert god here). That was more an example of bad people than bad religion". This is a poor argument since it presumes that the speaker has a better idea regarding the mindset of the people that committed the acts than the contemporaries of the persons involved who quite often hold them up as stellar examples of the faith in question (there are no shortage of examples of this).
#3- "we do more good than harm. The world is better because of the actions of the faithful." This isn't even a defence. More of an admission of the failings of the past, followed by a demand they be ignored because those tragedies are offset by the good deeds done now. I refuse to play this game.

Posted by MonkeyPunchBaby but is believing in something that is supposed to make you a better person such a bad thing?

Theoretically, no, but there is nothing to suggest that belief in God makes you a better person, or that lack of belief makes you less of a good person.

Example: A friend I used to work with lies, cheats, steals, swears, drinks, mongers whores, was divorced, etc., yet he believes in God and believes he will go to Heaven because he's a "good person."

I, on the other hand, try not to swear, drink in moderation, don't lie, don't cheat, don't steal, have never mongered a whore, am a Boy Scout leader and have been married 20 years. (In the interest of fairness, I am a pornography enthusiast and I occasionally trespass ) But apparently, since I reject the Holy Ghost, I will burn for an eternity in Hell.

Yeah, my friend is a hypocrite, and anecdotal evidence isn't really worth anything, but it illustrates a point: religion doesn't necessarily make you good.

Stayed tuned for installment 2.

I can go on all day about evil shit that happened in the past for every race, religion, nation, etc. Everybody did horrible shit in the past, but don't go around bitching about the Japanese and how stupid their culture because it led them to slaughter millions of Chinese in WWII for the fun of it. Pretty much everything, not just religion has been hijacked for personal gain at some point or another. But comparing the church of 1300 AD to now, where some random evangelical senator makes an anti-gay law does not compare.

Also, trying to apply modern values, culture, and context on the past is an extremely foolish thing to do. According to modern standards EVERY culture before us was unacceptable and wrong. Does that make it so? No. Things were different in the past, people need to understand that but they seem to insist on applying modern 21st century western ideals to events and people from 1000 years ago. Its moronic.

Look at the present.

Yeah, there are still people doing downright evil shit in the name of religion (eyes on Islam mainly). Yes, there are people trying to shove their beliefs down others throats with things like the Defense of Marriage act as you mentioned but really? Does the defense of marriage act really count as evil? Yeah, its bullshit, but its not going to make history like the crusades did.

I agree with most of what you are saying about context, but seriously, why does everyone like to shit all over Islam?

I would be down right shocked if even 1% of the Islamic community thinks turning to violence is the way to go. Are we really that blinded by the media? Islam is a faith just like all the others. They are not a large scale group of people hell bent on destroying the west, like so many of you like to believe. The fact is an extreme minority of the group is in the "lunitic" category; once again, just like every other religion.

I am not Muslim, but c'mon guys, Al Queda and Taliban is NOT an accurate portrayal of the muslim community. I work for DHS and even I know this... why is it so hard for everyone else?

Posted by maypost I agree with most of what you are saying about context, but seriously, why does everyone like to shit all over Islam? I would be down right shocked if even 1% of the Islamic community thinks turning to violence is the way to go. Are we really that blinded by the media? Islam is a faith just like all the others. They are not a large scale group of people hell bent on destroying the west, like so many of you like to believe. The fact is an extreme minority of the group is in the "lunitic" category; once again, just like every other religion. I am not Muslim, but c'mon guys, Al Queda and Taliban is NOT an accurate portrayal of the muslim community. I work for DHS and even I know this... why is it so hard for everyone else?

I'm just saying Islam is the religion which the evil shit seems to be happening in the name of now. Probably because the middle east is stuck in 1200AD.

And that 1% really wants to kill me and a lot of my friends, so I'm biased.

That's the issue right there. Islam is world wide, just like every other faith. It is not exclusive to the Middle East any more than Judaism is exclusive to Israel.

Sure, you may be coming into contact with that 1% who does want to do you harm and by all means, defend yourself and all of us against them. But don't blame islam for their actions. It's like blaming Jesus for the actions of Westboro Baptist. It's just not in any way logical.

Posted by maypost It's just not in any way logical.

since when is anything dealing with faith logical?
you forget what you're dealing with... an irrational mania. Faith, no matter what happy smiley face you slap on it, is still a mania and mania makes people do some fucked up shit... even if the shit that they're doing is what they feel is right. I've asked it over and over again... what makes a reasonably intelligent person need to believe in god?

Because the idea you go somewhere nice after death and this shit life is not the only thing there is may give them happiness?

Whats the problem with that?

Posted by Samurai since when is anything dealing with faith logical? you forget what you're dealing with... an irrational mania. Faith, no matter what happy smiley face you slap on it, is still a mania and mania makes people do some fucked up shit... even if the shit that they're doing is what they feel is right. I've asked it over and over again... what makes a reasonably intelligent person need to believe in god?

You're missing the point of my statement.

Lets change "Islam" to "Men with red hair"

"That's the issue right there. Men with red hair are world wide, just like every other hair color. It is not exclusive to Ireland any more than obesity is exclusive to The United States."

The changed parts are in italics.

I dont give two shits about what anyone believes or does not believe in.

I DO take issue with broad general blanket statements that force entire populations into stereotype. Be it religion, skin color, or any other attribute. Its still making generalizations. THAT is what bothers me. Let the world be the world. You be you and I'll be me. to me its not logical to group large populations of people like that based on something that really does not tell us who they are as an individual.

Edited for clarity

Posted by Soldat Because the idea you go somewhere nice after death and this shit life is not the only thing there is may give them happiness? Whats the problem with that?

because it's bullshit.
life is a big fat shit sandwich and when you die, that's it... you're back to the earth as food for other shit. End of line, mr happy.

why does there have to be an afterlife? why can't someone be happy with what they've got here and get on with it. Ok, I think I've got what I want to say about this... Believing in god is like buying spiritual insurance, no? You believe in something hedging your bets that when your body shits out and you die, you'll be guaranteed a nice room and clean towels for all eternity. Faith is based on fear. It's this irrational fear of death that we seem to have... we're not going to live forever as much as you'd like to. And secondly, what's there to do in the afterlife, according to popular myth? Sit on a cloud and pay second fiddle to a cut rate deity with a chip on its shoulder and a penchant for overblown theatrics? Fuck that shit.
Kill me now.