Posted by NotLost Awww, common’, you are always one of the ones I could rely on to not come back with a flippant sarcastic response for the sole sake of condescension (course, we all love sarcasm for community humor).

What, I can't take a break every once in a while?

Actually, I just didn't think how someone defines Christian really needed an explanation. I'd say being a follower of Jesus' philosophy, as well as believing in his divinity, more or less, qualifies you. Of course, some Christians will point to others and say they aren't "true" Christians. I tend to paint with a broader brush.

If to qualify for Christian all you have to do is believe Jesus existed I got some Jews and even atheist for ya to meet

That would make Muslims Christians, since they believe he existed too. They just see him as a prophet, rather than as the son of God.

Posted by splumer What, I can't take a break every once in a while?

anybody that comes up with the idea of a UE merit badge is cool in my book!

http://www.foxnews...ion-probably-wont/



Let them fucking go.

Posted by budda http://www.foxnews...ion-probably-wont/ Let them fucking go.

I'll be moving to Texas if they do. Not like Texas even needs the USA anyway.

Posted by jeepdave I'll be moving to Texas if they do. Not like Texas even needs the USA anyway.

Do you PROMISE to take Shrub with you, and PROMISE to name him as the Official State Bird and/or Plant?

Posted by KublaKhan Do you PROMISE to take Shrub with you, and PROMISE to name him as the Official State Bird and/or Plant?

Actually, I was planning on seein if he would run in Canada...........for something.

Posted by budda http://www.foxnews...ion-probably-wont/ Let them fucking go.

Funny thing. You have a shit ton of people who are pissed about government spending, yet think that businesses shall not be interfered with. Kinda hard to blame politicians for being "corrupt" when they follow the same ideological dogmas as the rest of us. We live in a culture of win/lose. Where someone has to get the short end of the stick. Where the ends justify the means.

I don't know is socialism is the answer, But they do have some pretty good ideas:

http://www.marxist...ks/1884/useful.htm

Oh noes, I crossed the political/religious threshold.

Dirt, you do understand that winners and losers exist no matter what "perfect" style government you have right? Life can not be fair. That's impossible. You do understand this correct.

Posted by dirt … yet think that businesses shall not be interfered with.

Not sure what that implies, but…

Posted by dirt Kinda hard to blame politicians for being "corrupt" when they follow the same ideological dogmas as the rest of us. We live in a culture of win/lose. Where someone has to get the short end of the stick. Where the ends justify the means.

…I think you kind-of made the point against socialism in your own response. So let’s make it harder to keep corruption in check by giving them more power – we’ve seen how well that works.

To your point, any society, regardless of the form of government, will only succeed when its ideologies include personal responsibility for self and to community.

Posted by dirt I don't know is socialism is the answer, But…

I think we do – every society has (and will) fail, but look at its strength thru its failure cycle. It’s best just prior to the apathy and greed stage – about the point when socialism starts making its inroads (e.g. current era USA).

Why, cause we get too greedy/lazy to help our neighbor, so opportunists in government appease us by making it their “responsibility” because it’s our “right”, and we’re too stupid to realize that we’ve relinquished our freedoms for an inefficient and false stipend.

Yeah, I wanna have the same forms of government as England or Greece ‘bout now.

Dawn your riot gear ‘cause I don’t want to pay taxes, but I am entitled to more handouts.

Hey man, I'm all for lesser government, but companies like Exxon being able to make record breaking profits, pay ZERO in tax, and recieve tax rebates is pretty fucked up.

Why is it conservatives hate big government when it works to try make health care affordable, or make businesses actually contribute to society, yet have no problem with the PATRIOT ACT or banning gay marriage, and putting otherwise innocent people away for drug possession?

Posted by budda Why is it conservatives hate big government when it works to try make health care affordable, or make businesses actually contribute to society, yet have no problem with the PATRIOT ACT or banning gay marriage, and putting otherwise innocent people away for drug possession?

Whoa there. Watch it on the stereotyping.

Posted by jeepdave Dirt, you do understand that winners and losers exist no matter what "perfect" style government you have right? Life can not be fair. That's impossible. You do understand this correct.

I understand that humans do what ever it is they set their minds on. They create what is in their heads. Winners and losers only exist because that is the way you want it. Life is not fair because you don't want it to be fair.

I want something else. I do hope your ways dies out when I achieve this.

Posted by NotLost Not sure what that implies, but…

That business should be left to it's own devices.

…I think you kind-of made the point against socialism in your own response. So let’s make it harder to keep corruption in check by giving them more power – we’ve seen how well that works.

First off: Did you read the lecture I posted? It said nothing of government, but rather a basic structuring of society based on meaningful work. And what meaningful work means. The them you speak of is us.

Second, I in no way made a point against socialism. You just happen to be looking at the matter in a rather narrow-minded way.

Third: Name the places where socialism existed or still exist. Russia never had it. Russia had a dictatorship called communism. What was meant to happen was a government was created to "train" society how to act the dissolve. What happened is those in power got stuck on revolutionary ideas. Of spreading communism. The Soviet union was born stillborn. Other places? England. London by the way is the birthplace of Socialism. Anyhow, Look at the GBP. Even with a fucked economy like us, the GBP is still worth more than the USD or the Euro. And they have better healthcare, or had. From what I hear it is falling apart due to citizens of other EU countries flying over for free healthcare. But before then England could take care of itself. But that is an issue with the EU, not with socialism. And as I said, I'm not for a government sponsored socialism. But a way of structuring society.

To your point, any society, regardless of the form of government, will only succeed when its ideologies include personal responsibility for self and to community.

No disagreement here.

I think we do – every society has (and will) fail, but look at its strength thru its failure cycle. It’s best just prior to the apathy and greed stage – about the point when socialism starts making its inroads (e.g. current era USA).

Can you give examples?

Why, cause we get too greedy/lazy to help our neighbor, so opportunists in government appease us by making it their “responsibility” because it’s our “right”, and we’re too stupid to realize that we’ve relinquished our freedoms for an inefficient and false stipend.

Also agree to a point. It is this lack of responsibility that makes us form any governments in the first place.

Yeah, I wanna have the same forms of government as England or Greece ‘bout now.

Sarcasm? I'll have you know that England is not falling apart due to socialism. Socialism is not working right now because of their banks. Just like us. Greece I'll admit I'm ignorant to what is going on there.

Dawn your riot gear ‘cause I don’t want to pay taxes, but I am entitled to more handouts.

I do not wish for handouts. I wish for a way of making a living that is not intolerable. I wish for a way to make a living in general. I pay taxes, and receive none of the benefits. None of these handouts.

Posted by dirt Posted by jeepdave Dirt, you do understand that winners and losers exist no matter what "perfect" style government you have right? Life cannot be fair. That's impossible. You do understand this correct. Winners and losers only exist because that is the way you want it. Life is not fair because you don't want it to be fair. I want something else. I do hope your ways dies out when I achieve this.

JD, sorry for overstepping my bounds and answering for you, but I think we’re on the same page here…

Dirt, it’s hard to interpret intentions from text, but I’m getting from the last sentence that you feel JD’s belief regarding fairness is also his desire? On the contrary, our desire is that, as I mentioned, man would operate within the required personal responsibility to succeed, but we believe that man is inherently evil, and even those who desire to do good struggle with not doing what they want and doing what they don’t want.

Posted by dirt That business should be left to it's own devices.

It should, but like government, it suffers from the same ill: People. There are many positive examples, like John Harvard, JC Penney, Dave Weyerhaeuser, Robert LeTourneau, James L. Kraft, et al. but the media focuses on the negative.

First off: Did you read the lecture I posted? It said nothing of government, but rather a basic structuring of society based on meaningful work. And what meaningful work means. The them you speak of is us. Second, I in no way made a point against socialism. You just happen to be looking at the matter in a rather narrow-minded way.

Lecture outside this thread? No, but your statement…

Kinda hard to blame politicians for being "corrupt" when they follow the same ideological dogmas as the rest of us.

…is essentially what JD and I are trying to convey. All forms of human government will eventually fail because of, well, humans.

Third: Name the places where socialism existed or still exist. Russia had a dictatorship called communism… …The Soviet union was born stillborn. England... … From what I hear it is falling apart…

Syria, Cuba, Venezuela, Vietnam, China – but who cares what they call themselves when they tax to the point of extortion to buy votes to keep themselves in power. Again, our point: they all fail.

And as I said, I'm not for a government sponsored socialism. But a way of structuring society.

Any structuring of society is government (or becomes it). There are UE sites in several states that started out as socialist societies, even with religious ideologies, but they still failed. The only group still thriving are the Amish, but they aren’t socialist.

Can you give examples?

I did, the US (unless you’re talking just socialist nations). It would be easier to ask though, what nation hasn’t fallen from its pinnacle. They may come back, but they always cycle. The nation that probably has run this cycle more than any other is Israel, and they have a book chronicling the fact that man cannot successfully govern himself.

Sarcasm? I'll have you know that England is not falling apart due to socialism. Socialism is not working right now because of their banks. Just like us.

Again, that’s my only point – it’s not working.

I do not wish for handouts. I wish for a way of making a living that is not intolerable. I wish for a way to make a living in general. I pay taxes, and receive none of the benefits. None of these handouts.

That wasn’t directed to only you, but to all US citizens when we go the way of Greece. The problem isn’t with people like you who don’t receive benefits, it’s when everyone wants a handout, and no one wants or is able to pay for them.


Wow, this was a very long winded response for:
I’m not jumping on your head, I agree with you! On the surface they sound like good ideas, but…
Man will screw up every form of governance, doesn’t matter how lofty it’s ideology.

Posted by NotLost …is essentially what JD and I are trying to convey. All forms of human government will eventually fail because of, well, humans.

Governments, and societies, that fail to adapt to changing conditions die. Rome, for example. The British Empire is no more, but Britain changed (often by force) to adapt to a world that was changing. Britain survives. There are many more examples.

Syria, Cuba, Venezuela, Vietnam, China – but who cares what they call themselves when they tax to the point of extortion to buy votes to keep themselves in power. Again, our point: they all fail.

None of them are socialist. Syria is a dictatorship, as is Venezuela. Cuba, Vietnam and China are communist dictatorships.

Sweden is probably the most socialistic nation on earth. They are also one of the most successful, in terms of literacy, education level, infant mortality, public health and many other measures. They are also one of the least religious nations in the world, and home to the Swedish Bikini Team.

The only group still thriving are the Amish, but they aren’t socialist.

Actually, they are quite socialist. Barn raisings? Also, I don't know if I would say they are thriving. Their rate of birth defects, for example, is something like ten times the general population.

Man will screw up every form of governance, doesn’t matter how lofty it’s ideology.

Quite true, but people, and their vigilance, are what maintains the positive systems governments put in place. And what is the alternative? A society where only the strongest rule? Life indeed isn't fair, because fairness doesn't exist in a state of nature. Governments exist to help ensure fairness and to protect the weak from the strong, at least ideally.

Can we move this to politics?

Posted by splumer ten times the general population. Quite true, but people, and their vigilance, are what maintains the positive systems governments put in place. And what is the alternative? A society where only the strongest rule? Life indeed isn't fair, because fairness doesn't exist in a state of nature. Governments exist to help ensure fairness and to protect the weak from the strong, at least ideally. Can we move this to politics?

Governments exist to help ensure fairness? No. They exist to impose an equal set of rules. Thats all. And none do that, they always find reasons to give a little extra to someone else. And thats when it becomes "unfair" so to speak. If you give someone more $$ cause they are poor, or black, or female then you have just given fairness a big ole cock in the ass.

Posted by jeepdave Governments exist to help ensure fairness? No. They exist to impose an equal set of rules. Thats all. And none do that, they always find reasons to give a little extra to someone else. And thats when it becomes "unfair" so to speak. If you give someone more $$ cause they are poor, or black, or female then you have just given fairness a big ole cock in the ass.

I've explained this before, but helping to ensure fairness ("equity" might be a better term) is the basic purpose of gov't. You may perceive it to be to impose equal rules, or think that's how it should be, but the reality is quite different.

We've been over the giving more money to someone who is porr, etc., before, but I maintain that that is how you ensure fairness. I know your view on this issue.

Posted by NotLost Dirt, it’s hard to interpret intentions from text, but I’m getting from the last sentence that you feel JD’s belief regarding fairness is also his desire? On the contrary, our desire is that, as I mentioned, man would operate within the required personal responsibility to succeed, but we believe that man is inherently evil, and even those who desire to do good struggle with not doing what they want and doing what they don’t want.

To say man is inherently evil is not taking personal responsibility. It's like throwing your hands in the air and saying "fuck it, I give up". I will not fall to that weakness.

Lecture outside this thread? No. . .

If you have not read it then you are clearly talking out of your ass and have no idea what I'm talking about. I suggest you catch up. But I will give you a taste of one of William Morris' other writings:

"I will say what I mean by being a Socialist, since I am told that the word no longer expresses definitely and with certainty what it did ten years ago. Well, what I mean by Socialism is a condition of society in which there should be neither rich nor poor, neither master nor master's man, neither idle nor overworked, neither brain-sick brain workers, nor heart-sick hand workers, in a word, in which all men would be living in equality of condition, and would manage their affairs unwastefully, and with the full consciousness that harm to one would mean harm to all—the realization at last of the meaning of the word COMMONWEALTH."

…is essentially what JD and I are trying to convey. All forms of human government will eventually fail because of, well, humans.

Then kill yourself. There is no reason to live if that is your view. But no, you live. Either you enjoy being a slave, or you wish to make others slaves.

Syria, Cuba, Venezuela, Vietnam, China – but who cares what they call themselves when they tax to the point of extortion to buy votes to keep themselves in power. Again, our point: they all fail.

Clearly you have not the reasoning abilities to make a firm argument. Naming places on a map doesn't convince me of anything. I don't know anything about Syria, Venezuela or Vietnam so I don't know of what you speak. China now has pretty much all of our manufacturing capabilities and we owe them a huge debt. The means of production is indeed controlled by the state, and can be directed in any way the Chinese wish. Let's say it's fashionable to "go green", the Chinese government can do that at a drop of a hat. Meanwhile, the US would still be arguing "facts" derived by paid corporate "scientists". While "Socialist" is not in the way I imagine it. I consider myself an anarchist anyways.

Cuba is a socialist dictatorship and has a general better quality of life than other nations that copy after us.

Any structuring of society is government (or becomes it).

No. You are full of shit. Cooperation is not government. It is not top down. In turn, it is social responsibility. You just happened to have a knee jerk reaction without knowing and now you are caught in the web of your own judgment.

There are UE sites in several states that started out as socialist societies, even with religious ideologies, but they still failed. The only group still thriving are the Amish, but they aren’t socialist.

Like hell the Amish are not "socialist".

To give a basic refresher:

"Socialism is an economic system in which the means of production are publicly or commonly owned and controlled co-operatively."

And there are plenty of communes that exist and are thriving. Places like Damanhur, or Findhorn.

I did, the US (unless you’re talking just socialist nations). It would be easier to ask though, what nation hasn’t fallen from its pinnacle. They may come back, but they always cycle. The nation that probably has run this cycle more than any other is Israel, and they have a book chronicling the fact that man cannot successfully govern himself.

We are a very capitalist nation, and we are falling apart. Also, you speak from the level of government. I can name one thing that has stayed constant all through all the ages of man: Craft. Man has and always will make things. In my thinking, The meaning of life is that one must be engaged with what one is doing. Capitalism distorts this. We chase the dollar as the means to achieve what we want. But we miss the fact that the dollar dictates what can be done. That right, Money dictates society. Those who control money controls all those who live by it.

Again, that’s my only point – it’s not working.

then fucking do something.

That wasn’t directed to only you, but to all US citizens when we go the way of Greece. The problem isn’t with people like you who don’t receive benefits, it’s when everyone wants a handout, and no one wants or is able to pay for them.

Those who don't understand work for it's true nature are apt to opt out of it, and force their load onto others. Capitalism makes it possible.

Wow, this was a very long winded response for: I’m not jumping on your head, I agree with you! On the surface they sound like good ideas, but… Man will screw up every form of governance, doesn’t matter how lofty it’s ideology.

I'm saying you lack a understanding of human nature. These are ideas that if followed is not possible to fail, because failure is built into it. One of my favorite quotes:

"There is hope in honest error, none in the icy perfections of the mere stylist"

~Charles Rennie Mackintosh

Posted by jeepdave Governments exist to help ensure fairness? No. They exist to impose an equal set of rules. Thats all. And none do that, they always find reasons to give a little extra to someone else. And thats when it becomes "unfair" so to speak. If you give someone more $$ cause they are poor, or black, or female then you have just given fairness a big ole cock in the ass.

All I ask is for the means to produce that which is in my heart to create. And to do so without starving.

I will not accept thralldom. If you wish, go ahead. but I have a quote for you:

"Fear is the cheapest room in the house. I would like to see you living in better conditions." ~Hafez