To site company stores is a bit of a straw-man, working conditions and wages were so bad that in order to keep their serfs alive industrialist would have to set up stores and doctors. Industrialism is another way to eliminate the poor. It costs less money to use a tractor than to have slaves do the same amount of work. See Marx, surplus labor.

Human rights? You gotta be kidding me. People died for a five day work week. How many union organizers were killed by pinkerton thugs back then? I hold no glory days for the industrial revolution, actually none since the agrarian revolution ten thousand years ago. I've read my shit on hunter gathers as well, and though life was tough a lot can be said for that type of society.

I won't argue the point on schools set up back then (Stanford etc), though I probably could. Now schools don't serve the same role that they did back then. Currently the education industry is a bubble that is about to explode. You see it when people with masters degrees are working at Starbucks. Thing is, the banks can't repossess you education and we don't have debtors prison. If we did it would start to look like the khmer rogue around here.

I'm always skeptical of charity, especially from the rich. Even the Getty Center seems more like a propaganda piece than an art museum.

I'll also say that a lot of modern medicine is bullshit, tainted by capital. The more you need a certain medicine the more it costs. Give me a break from the industrialist propaganda you're spewing.

Posted by earthworm. I'm always skeptical of charity, especially from the rich. Even the Getty Center seems more like a propaganda piece than an art museum. I'll also say that a lot of modern medicine is bullshit, tainted by capital. The more you need a certain medicine the more it costs. Give me a break from the industrialist propaganda you're spewing.

How about the Bill and Melinda Gates foundation, investing billions in international development, relief, education and public health? You think the red cross runs on the pennies given by the poor, or the billions given by the rich?

I'll use more open (less "industrialist") language when you stop the gross generalizations -- your characterization of prescription medicine is sensationalist at best. You're taking the isolated cases where pharmaceutical companies grossly inflate medicine prices beyond production costs (usually to recoup enormous r&d costs) and trying to generalize that to all other cases. Hell, im on life saving heart medication and it costs me 20 bucks a month, and has gotten cheaper over time. I don't even bother to use my insurance to cover it, its so inexpensive. I used to take antimalarial and antibiotic medications all the time for work, and again it was so cheap i could have just gotten it out of pocket if id wanted to. Im sure glad modern medicine knows how to detect and extract blood clots from deep inside arteries (after a work related incident) or I'd not even be here typing this.

I think your grasp the of medical and pharmaceutical industries is startlingly myopic.

Posted by earthworm Currently the education industry is a bubble that is about to explode. You see it when people with masters degrees are working at Starbucks.

I totally agree with this statement, by the way. Liberal arts degrees have sold students a bill of goods.

Posted by Aleksandar Really? Venture, wealth and commerce are evil? Why do you think the global standard of living is higher today than at any point in history? Do you think food security and medicine have nothing to do with industry, and industry has nothing to do with wealth? The world was universally poor and the global life expectancy was half what it is today, up until the period of massive wealth creation during the industrial revolution and then the subsequent rise of modern medicine. Wealth creation reinvested into new ventures has been almost entirely responsible for the modern world... And we owe it to the wealthy for fostering the remarkable state of public health (investments in medicine) food security (investments in industry) and human rights (made possible in mass communications, starting with the printing press) we enjoy today. Don't romanticize history.... There was no such thing as the agrarian utopia... Life back then was dark, dirty, violent and short. don't demonize the rich... its because of them that we have what we have today. Im sure even an avowed poor person like gandhi counted his lucky stars that the "rich" invested in newspapers and radio... Else he'd never have won over the British public, and one of the greatest human rights victories of the last century would have never happened.

You are making some great leaps, and projecting a whole slew of ideologies to me that I don't ascribe to. And to say all the good in the world comes form rich people is also a gross misrepresentation. Good things happen in spite of venture capitalism due to one thing: passion. Anyone who has done any good in this world were passionate about what it was they are doing. In our time, people seem to be passionate about one thing and one thing only: Money. MONEY IS NOT AN END. Money is a means. At this point, Money muddies our view. it causes conflict where there should be none. Science should not be tied to economy, because the end result is "scientists" who are paid to "find" a particular "truth".

These positive ideas of how venture capitalism works is akin to the positive ideas of Marxism. Great on paper remember. It doesn't take into account human error. The ugly reality is coming to fruition.

I will admit, I have not come up with a better way. I can only guess. But I can point out the insanity of our current way.

I fucking hate that my view gets summed into romanticizing history. I don't want to go back in time. At this time, humans have the potential to do so much, and we squander it. I want improvement. Progress. Imagine this: We have a surplus population. If every able body in America could work but 8 hours a week in factories, mills, ect, we could dig ourselves out of the debt. 8 hours a week. Is a 3-4 hour work day toil? Everyone would share the load of society without the need for taxes. This would also mean a much more educated and skilled masses. Then we could have the free time to do whatever it is we want. Imagine, Instead of going to Ikea for something you need, you walk out your door, talk to a neighbor, and have him design something for you. Why would he willing do work for you? To stave off boredom. To be engaged with a passion. Then we could work at making our collective lives more beautiful and worthwhile.

I don't quite know if these are practical. But we won't know unless tried. I dream.

But currently we live a nightmare that we are not aware of it as such.

Posted by Aleksandar your characterization of prescription medicine is sensationalist at best. You're taking the isolated cases where pharmaceutical companies grossly inflate medicine prices beyond production costs (usually to recoup enormous r&d costs) and trying to generalize that to all other cases. Hell, im on life saving heart medication and it costs me 20 bucks a month, and has gotten cheaper over time. I don't even bother to use my insurance to cover it, its so inexpensive. I used to take antimalarial and antibiotic medications all the time for work, and again it was so cheap i could have just gotten it out of pocket if id wanted to. Im sure glad modern medicine knows how to detect and extract blood clots from deep inside arteries (after a work related incident) or I'd not even be here typing this.

Western science has taken great leaps. Advancements that save lives. But it is a system of fixing a problem(for the most part). Imagine being able to make it so these illness never bothered you in the first place. Think about diabetes. Heart disease. Obesity. These are not necessary illnesses. And there is fringe work being done, that is not getting touched by "science" or "medicine" because it is too hippy dippy, or takes a drastic change in lifestyle. There is superstition and distrust surrounding some of these practices, because contrary information is always given because there are some industries that are invested in the status quo. Things like switching to a raw vegan diet and exercise. It could be just propaganda, but turning around and curing diabetes in a month! But no, raw veganism is just for bleeding heart hippies.

Posted by jeepdave Dirt, you are a very creative person, but you have to wrap your head around living with the cards your dealt, instead spending your life fighting a battle you can't win. If this was the 1890's, I think you would be a very normal and well adjusted person. But with the progression of technology its not going to be possible to live like that. Before the government tried to take as much wealth from people as they could, the rich contributed many wonderful things to America. But now you have to say, no, go get your own crayons. Because otherwise you will be left with the purple one thats worn down to the nub.

Tell me something. Where is the freedom in this worldview? You are telling me I HAVE to live the way you do. That is thralldom. Money is not my god. Also, you don't have enough of a grasp of history. Do you know what you owe to socialism?

Disease mapping, Sewer systems, Clean drinking water, to name just a few.

Posted by earthworm To site company stores is a bit of a straw-man, working conditions and wages were so bad that in order to keep their serfs alive industrialist would have to set up stores and doctors. Industrialism is another way to eliminate the poor. It costs less money to use a tractor than to have slaves do the same amount of work. See Marx, surplus labor.

Also, frequently workers were paid in company scrip that was ONLY redeemable at a company-owned store. No competition meant the company store could charge what it wanted and could sell whatever it wanted.

Posted by splumer Also, frequently workers were paid in company scrip that was ONLY redeemable at a company-owned store. No competition meant the company store could charge what it wanted and could sell whatever it wanted.

this is so very true... the mining history of the Adirondacks (Mineville and Lyon Mountain NY) are filled with abuses like that.

Posted by splumer Also, frequently workers were paid in company scrip that was ONLY redeemable at a company-owned store. No competition meant the company store could charge what it wanted and could sell whatever it wanted.

Tonight I drink to human rights!

Posted by Samurai this is so very true... the mining history of the Adirondacks (Mineville and Lyon Mountain NY) are filled with abuses like that.

It happened all through Appalachia. In southern Ohio there are several towns that are no longer there that were "company towns." They died because once the mines ran out, there were no businesses besides the company-owned ones to sustain them. San Toy and Moonville spring to mind. Moonville actually has some remnants that are in the database.

Posted by Aleksandar Really? Venture, wealth and commerce are evil? Why do you think the global standard of living is higher today than at any point in history? Do you think food security and medicine have nothing to do with industry, and industry has nothing to do with wealth? The world was universally poor and the global life expectancy was half what it is today, up until the period of massive wealth creation during the industrial revolution and then the subsequent rise of modern medicine. Wealth creation reinvested into new ventures has been almost entirely responsible for the modern world... And we owe it to the wealthy for fostering the remarkable state of public health (investments in medicine) food security (investments in industry) and human rights (made possible in mass communications, starting with the printing press) we enjoy today. Don't romanticize history.... There was no such thing as the agrarian utopia... Life back then was dark, dirty, violent and short. don't demonize the rich... its because of them that we have what we have today. Im sure even an avowed poor person like gandhi counted his lucky stars that the "rich" invested in newspapers and radio... Else he'd never have won over the British public, and one of the greatest human rights victories of the last century would have never happened.

While reading this thread I thought I was actually on the politics board. Interesting to see how threads like this evolve

Anyway, I would like to contribute with a very interesting report that I watched in my Cultural Anthropology class last semester about how greed can be (and has been) productive. http://www.youtube...atch?v=F0VHiONkot8