http://www.msnbc.m...ties/#.TkZv2HNc8zY

Here is just one of thousands of articles about humans acting like beasts.

Is this so brutal that it is unique from other animals on our planet? Is this what separates us from animals?

My perspective is a little shifted from where I have been, but it seems that a great deal of our uniqueness is our highly complex ability to inflict suffering on each other in novel and creative ways.

Other primates have highly complex social systems and a clear capacity for suffering. Where does that place us, ethically, in relation to them?

Posted by tekriter http://www.msnbc.m...ties/#.TkZv2HNc8zY Here is just one of thousands of articles about humans acting like beasts. Is this so brutal that it is unique from other animals on our planet? Is this what separates us from animals? My perspective is a little shifted from where I have been, but it seems that a great deal of our uniqueness is our highly complex ability to inflict suffering on each other in novel and creative ways. Other primates have highly complex social systems and a clear capacity for suffering. Where does that place us, ethically, in relation to them?

QFT. If anything, the fact that we're able to discuss the ethical dilemmas these actions pose should make us superior, but the fact that they still occur tells me we're not. I'll take a manatee over a human any time.

I think Denis Leary put it best.

http://www.youtube...atch?v=71kig4xhDUE

Posted by tekriter it seems that a great deal of our uniqueness is our highly complex ability to inflict suffering on each other in novel and creative ways.

this just sounds like rhetoric, and a distortion of the facts. i understand the point you're trying to make -- "humans sometimes behave like animals; nay, worse than animals!" -- but you're using the logical equivalent of a shell game.

you're making it a point of distinction that humans can be incredibly cruel to each other, in a way fundamentally different than the ambivalent cruelty of nature.

why not make it an equally important point of distinction, that humans can be kind, generous and loving, in a likewise fundamentally different way than the instinctive analogues seen in nature?

this is what i see as the flaw in your statement. the "complexity" you're referring to manifests in both positive and negative ways. the point of distinction is still there: the complexity of human behavior, period.

Posted by splumer the fact that we're able to discuss the ethical dilemmas these actions pose should make us superior, but the fact that they still occur tells me we're not.

you're mixing the outcomes of your logic, and i don't agree with the conclusion you're drawing.

here:

1. we have a concept of ethics. 1b. this indicates humans are superior.
2. we have ethical failings. 2b. this indicates humans are inferior.

your first argument invalidates your second argument; not the other way around. "having ethical failings" only occurs when the first statement is true.

what makes humans special?
the amount of thought we put into fucking over other members of the species. the amount of thought we put into pursuing avenues of torture to inflict on other members of our species. the imagination we put to less than productive endeavours aimed at fucking over other members of our species.

Posted by Samurai what makes humans special? the amount of thought we put into fucking over other members of the species. the amount of thought we put into pursuing avenues of torture to inflict on other members of our species. the imagination we put to less than productive endeavours aimed at fucking over other members of our species.

Actually, the argument you make supports the fact that we are unique and special. Be bitter if you want, just keeps you a victim.

Necrophilia. No other animal does it. Also, if a horse fucks a donkey to make a mule, is that bestiality on the horse's part? This shit keeps me up at night.

But on the real, we're different than other animals, but not better. If there were some scale that we are on top of we'd have to waste our time arguing that dolphins are better than cats, a snake is better than a spider, a walrus is worse than a lion. Arbitrary concepts of worth are arbitrary. Diffence can be measured, but objective value can not be assigned.

Posted by earthworm Necrophilia. No other animal does it.

Necrophilia among ducks ruffles research feathers

Posted by phractal I think Denis Leary put it best. http://www.youtube...atch?v=71kig4xhDUE

Awesome. I'd never seen that before. This thread is awesome.

Posted by Aleksandar this just sounds like rhetoric, and a distortion of the facts. i understand the point you're trying to make -- "humans sometimes behave like animals; nay, worse than animals!" -- but you're using the logical equivalent of a shell game. you're making it a point of distinction that humans can be incredibly cruel to each other, in a way fundamentally different than the ambivalent cruelty of nature. why not make it an equally important point of distinction, that humans can be kind, generous and loving, in a likewise fundamentally different way than the instinctive analogues seen in nature? this is what i see as the flaw in your statement. the "complexity" you're referring to manifests in both positive and negative ways. the point of distinction is still there: the complexity of human behavior, period.

Of course is is rhetoric, everything posted here has a rhetorical purpose.

I wasn't really making an argument with reference to the original question. I was just making an observation.

Religion has often sought to place us on a higher plane than animals. I suggest that ethics has a lot to do with happiness and suffering, and my only point was that we inflict much suffering (on humans and animals) and as a race we may not have that claim to the higher ethical ground that religion teaches.

You might note that I did couch my observations clearly in terms of my perspective. I have spent a long while living in the worst places on earth.

I know my perspective has shifted from yours, but how many pits have you seen filled with slaughtered children?

You are right of course, but I admire your willingness to argue over anything. In that we are kindred "spirits".

People have an amazing and complex ability to inflict good as well, but I don't see a whole lot of that where the rubber hits the road.

Posted by tekriter I know my perspective has shifted from yours, but how many pits have you seen filled with slaughtered children? People have an amazing and complex ability to inflict good as well, but I don't see a whole lot of that where the rubber hits the road.

This may not be the answer you were expecting, but I've spent the majority of my career in the developing world (since 2003 - im a behavioral scientist), on the front lines of relief work and have therefore seen my share of things I'd rather forget -- in places like sierra leone, DRC, sudan and somalia (and happier places like malawi and rural south africa, too).

Admittedly i first lost my faith in humankind (and religion) shortly after seeing my first idp camp, and far worse things were to follow. I also rediscovered my faith in humankind (and the concept of God), somewhere around 2008. years of observation and deductive reasoning amidst some of the worst things people do to each other led me right back to a fundamental belief in humanity and the existence of God.

Incidentally, ive met some of the most kind, loving, strong, good people right there in the middle of unimaginable suffering. Ive also met some of the worst and most evil ;)

Posted by MutantMandias Necrophilia among ducks ruffles research feathers

Ducks don't count. The bible doesn't mention them, so they are clearly the creation of the devil. Also capybaras are as well. Fun fact, capybaras are considered a fish by the pope.

Posted by jeepdave Actually, the argument you make supports the fact that we are unique and special. Be bitter if you want, just keeps you a victim.

get off your high horse. here, let me help you. (SHOVE)

Posted by Aleksandar years of observation and deductive reasoning amidst some of the worst things people do to each other led me right back to a fundamental belief in humanity and the existence of God.

I was just thinking some thoughts like this myself yesterday while contemplating the failed experiment that is America. For me, it is absolutely true that simple observation of the world results in a fundamental belief in humanity, but there is no sense at all that leads from there to the existence of God. How pathetic is this God, that His creations are not capable of living without Him?

Posted by MutantMandias How pathetic is this God, that His creations are not capable of living without Him?

I think you have missed an idea here. It's not pathetic. He wanted fellowship, always has, always will. And you can't exactly fellowship with something that has no use for you or that does not desire you in any way. I mean, that's how human relationships fail. It wasnt His plan to make something dependent or even independent, it was His plan to make something to fellowship with, something with free will and intellect. Being essentially dependant on Him, is the result of our own sin.

And what if there were no sin? Seems like a pretty abstract concept if you ask me. What if there were no objective morality? Would we still have to be dependent on a god?


As an aside to mandias contemplating the failed experiment of America, check this out:

http://www.dailyma...?ito=feeds-newsxml


I'm trying to save a similar project myself. See the whiskey drinking fountain thread in other if you're interested.

Posted by Samurai get off your high horse. here, let me help you. (SHOVE)

The fact that I could get on a high horse makes me special

Posted by Mr_Fiend I think you have missed an idea here. It's not pathetic. He wanted fellowship, always has, always will. And you can't exactly fellowship with something that has no use for you or that does not desire you in any way. I mean, that's how human relationships fail. It wasnt His plan to make something dependent or even independent, it was His plan to make something to fellowship with, something with free will and intellect. Being essentially dependant on Him, is the result of our own sin.

But, you have missed the idea that God is made up out of the weakness of people who were afraid of the dark.

I would not say that is 100% true.

I have faith in the fact that there is something more to existence than what we see.

I think the real problem is you guys seem to think that people like me think that the idea of God is some guy looking down on us and watching/dictating what happens to us.

To me... "God" is simply just the belief that there is more to existence than what we understand and teh faith that when things happen, there is a reason for it(not always a reason that I may like, but a reason none the less). But that's just me and how I view my beliefs