Posted by maypost To me... "God" is simply just the belief that there is more to existence than what we understand and teh faith that when things happen, there is a reason for it(not always a reason that I may like, but a reason none the less). But that's just me and how I view my beliefs

I have known for a long time that you are less crazy than most, and I appreciate that fact.

There is no doubt that humans do not understand what the shit is going on around us. Existence is pretty neato, and I fully accept that, just like sub-atomic particles can affect each other across seemingly impossible distances and even across time, there are almost certainly complex interactions that happen in the universe which have noticeable but currently inexplicable consequences that affect our lives in concrete ways. I am comfortable with calling that God.

And, those interactions may provide a reason for things that happen, but just like I find it insane folly to attribute any sort of consciousness to the nature of existence, saying that things happen for a reason usually attributes a sense of planning or design, which again, just comes from fear of the unknown.

The belief that "Life is empty and meaningless" provides me with a sense of calm, and the desire to provide meaning and fulfillment for my fellow humans.

Now, how is that different than religion? Maybe it's not so much, but at least it makes sense based on the observable world.

Posted by MutantMandias There is no doubt that humans do not understand what the shit is going on around us.

Posted by MutantMandias Now, how is that different than religion? Maybe it's not so much, but at least it makes sense based on the observable world.

Religion is a perception of the world that essentially came from one source. Everyone has there own perceptions of this world that according to you is not fully understood yet we base our beliefs on that.

It is my belief that we CAN'T understand everything that is around us for that reason, so it was told to us by the very entity that made it and that is holding it together.

I don't understand why you feel it is necessary that something understands.

Posted by MutantMandias I don't understand why you feel it is necessary that something understands.

I think, in general, that's based on the need to control or influence. If something understands and has a consciousness it can be influenced. There are very few gods that can't be influenced in some way, and that always requires sacrifice. Personally, I'd rather kill a goat than have to live by some "objective" moral code that doesn't allow me to drink coffee if I get to choose which sacrifice I make.

Belief in God is just a way to avoid responsibility.

I wouldn't say that exactly. Giving up coffee to get to be a Mormon planetary diety seems like you're responsable to give up the coffee, or lead a good life or only worship one god or whatever the catch is. There's always a catch that pays off in potential cash and prizes. To me it seems a longing to control that which you can't more so than even an attempt at explaining what you can't. I wish we'd all just agree to cast spells and such for religion, it's at least a little more honest.

Posted by earthworm I wouldn't say that exactly. Giving up coffee to get to be a Mormon planetary diety seems like you're responsable to give up the coffee, or lead a good life or only worship one god or whatever the catch is. There's always a catch that pays off in potential cash and prizes. To me it seems a longing to control that which you can't more so than even an attempt at explaining what you can't. I wish we'd all just agree to cast spells and such for religion, it's at least a little more honest.

As a man of faith, I have NEVER belittled anyone's beliefs(or lack there of) in that kind of matter(saying we should all cast spells IS making fun... no matter how you flip it and you know it... So man up and at least admit that).

Why is it that you need to make fun of people of faith for having their beliefs in the religion board, and then defend freedom of choice in the politics board?

This is a 100% honest question...

Posted by maypost As a man of faith, I have NEVER belittled anyone's beliefs(or lack there of) in that kind of matter(saying we should all cast spells IS making fun... no matter how you flip it and you know it... So man up and at least admit that). Why is it that you need to make fun of people of faith for having their beliefs in the religion board, and then defend freedom of choice in the politics board? This is a 100% honest question...

because the two aren't related.
Ok... lets say for example that you tell me that you are an evangelical christian. I, of course, think you're looney tunes, but your belief and right to that belief are protected by the constitution of the united states. You getting me?
i can personally ridicule you, but can't officially do anything to stop you from worshiping whatever deity you choose.

While I don't agree that the 2 are not related... I will accept what you're saying.

I do, however, ask that you remember these words the next time you flip out on a republican in the politics board.

Faith is like politics. It's a core belief. It's ok to not agree on them, but attacking a person like a profane child for what they believe is NOT. Say all you want, but you know i'm right

Posted by maypost I do, however, ask that you remember these words the next time you flip out on a republican in the politics board.

oh no no... silly, that's different. I'm right and not only are THEY wrong, but they're deluded.

OK, you do have me there!

Actually, I cast spells all the time and have an alter in my room to my personal gods... I'm not trying to belittle or make fun of your faith. There's something that can be said for control over things you can't and that notion seems to be entirely absent from a detached understanding of religion. Chasing windmills is at least romantic, and awesome when it works as in with practical alchemy or other systems of magic.


Again, I'm not trying to spin this. If I were in fact making fun I'd own up to it. I'm also a man of faith, but it's a very different one, no more or less valid than yours.

If I seriously worship a sock puppet as a Babylonian snake god that is just as valid as going to mass, but I don't know if you'll see my point. You'll probably just think I'm only making fun. Sex drugs and rock and roll is my religion, or as Martin Luther said "wein weib und gesang".

I guess I'm a pop-alchemist or Bokononist. I understand my religion is made up and I know my reasons for practicing. What does that make me?

On re-reading my other posts I come off as a dick. Sorry about that. My point is that maybe its the desire to control that differentiates us from animals. Maybe not though. Maybe there's a story about animal hubris that I'm unaware of somewhere. I hadn't heard about the duck necrophilia thing, though I was joking about it as separating us from animals.

I also think that desire to control could be the root of all religions, even sock puppet worshipping ones. Consider that organized religions showed up around the same time as agriculture. (Praying for rain, the story of Cain and Able as justification for killing nomads, or corn-gods as a sort of parallel new world version of the Jesus story, etc. These two things seem very linked)

This desire for control probably goes back further though. Think of a bushman killing a giraffe. He thanks the animal spirits then works fast to cut it up and get out of there. He says a death this large will not go unnoticed by the spirits and he is right. If we're using the "god says don't eat pork, but really it's because of parasites model" he might only be worried about scavengers, just like a leopard that makes a kill. However, the fact that he thanks the giraffe to me indicates something more than what the leopard is doing; he's asking for control over the situation. He doesn't need to do that, and he doesn't do that exclusively; he works fast rather than just counting on the fact that the animal spirits have been appeased and no harm will come. (see the documentary "hunters" for the story of the giraffe hunt, and, yes, parts of it were staged)

I think the difference in developed religions and their roots is social complexity. You no longer just have to thank the rain god or kill a goat or toss a sword into a bog, you have to sacrifice part of your self to be a part of the group (you can't have sex with some else's wife even if it's consensual and she's really hot, etc.) so for unconscious purposes of cultural cohesion we get objective moral codes. The religion is still rooted in the desire to control our situation, but does it in more and more subtle ways. Thus, I view things like animal sacrifice and "spell casting" especially to gods that you make up yourself as being more honest than not having sex with someones wife for fear of displeasing a god. That is my position, and yes, you are free to have your own. Even if I consider someone as being dishonest I'm not here to save anyone. Perhaps you took me stating my opinion as saying it was the only way. We can worship what ever sky gods we please.

Also, I'm opposed to objectivity and dogma in general, including scientific dogma. I'll probably be completely alone on these positions on this board, but that doesn't bother me. My dogma is do as thou wilt.

Here's a parakeet with a peanut on its head.