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1 2 3 4   UER Forum > Archived UE Tutorials, Lessons, and Useful Info > Ethical Question (Viewed 1223 times) Macsbug  Noble Donor Location: St. Paul, MN Gender: Male Safety First!  |  |  Re: Ethical Question <Reply # 20 on 10/13/2003 7:34 PM >   The way I see it is that if you realize that there is a inherent danger in tresspassing or the like, and are prepared to face danger, and prepared to face the consequenses of something going wrong (brick on head, death by train, CHUD attack...) and not sue/blame the owners, the city, etc., then it is to me ethicly acceptable. If you are doing a good job exploring, the police should not be hot on your trail, and therefore not put in danger. Many police realize the dangers of abondoned structures and the like, and will not follow you in, at least not without backup. At least thats what I think The last thing I have to say is that ethics to me are defined by each persons ideas of what is right or wrong, it is very hard to say an action is ethicly right or wrong for all people, it all depends on ones invididual beliefs. Many people will agree on general right/wrong things, but it gets harder for them to decide on specifics. "Believe those who are seeking the truth; doubt those who find it." A Casual Fellow  I don't like UER. Location: New York City  |  Re: Ethical Question <Reply # 21 on 10/13/2003 8:08 PM >   Posted by Krazy Isn't it also unethical to bypass obvious signage and jump down into a subway tunnel, then proceed to run down the tunnel and hit the dirt (mayube poo?) when a train passes? You could get hit by a train! (or maybe a brick could also fall on your head) What I speak of is supposedly authored and participaded in by yourself and documented cheezily online here: http://expeditionnyc.web1000.com/garyirtcityhall.htm Woohoo, cheezy! Is that bad? I never claimed to be "ethical", Krazy (please re-read my posts). Actually, I do a lot of things that are unethical- no need listing them. I have no problem with that as I understand ethics are subjective and are a matter of social and sometimes personal opinion. I personally don't have a problem with pre-marital sex or the use of psychoactive drugs for recreational purpose, to list some of my "nihilistic" (oh no!) beliefs. I can honestly tell you that I don't care much for the ethics here concerning breaking-in. I already stated that I have no problem with breaking in, and I have no problem with trespassing (why would I be here if I did?), and walking around in dangerous tunnels. If you really grasped my point, you'd understand that I used those as arguments (brick falling on head) against the "use of the 'no harm done' justification" to trespassing. He believed that if no one was hurt, then trespassing can be done (note he didn't say it was "right"), but it could be done- which isn't entirely like saying it's right, but it's understood that one would only do what one believed was right. This presents the visage that UE is "just" and "noble"- which I refute. We just trespass for our own selfish purposes (whatever your agenda in there may be). Jester, again- "the ethics of what happens after". Well, like I've explained, if anyone goes in there, it will be of their own free will. By the way, if we look at it from another perspective, wouldn't it be great if a lock was one broken for us to a place we've really wanted to get into (as urban explorers)? You make a good point, Jester. Not everyone will agree, and obviously we aren't going to agree here. So let's just leave it here, alright? You've made some good points, and I've made some too. This is like arguing about the morality of abortion or something... it's quite the ethical quagmire and not everyone will agree! I don't want to get dragged into an argument (which usually just turns into personal insults), and I respect your opinion. MacGyver  Location: St Paul, Minnesota Gender: Male "Someone go find me a paperclip, a D-cell battery, and a cheese grater"  |  Re: Ethical Question <Reply # 22 on 10/13/2003 8:15 PM >   I still don't quite grasp what your arguement is. So far all I've been able to pick out amongst the cluttered language is that you think others are overglamorizing exploration. Of course we do it for our own purposes. If you're here discussing it just because you want to belong to "the scene" and think that makes you cool, then you've got the wrong driving force. Fuckin' A. All these polotics makes me wanna just sit down and watch goonies again to clear my head. Like a fiend with his dope / a drunkard his wine / a man will have lust for the lure of the mine "If you are not part of the solution, you are not dissolved in the solvent." A Casual Fellow  I don't like UER. Location: New York City  |  Re: Ethical Question <Reply # 23 on 10/13/2003 8:21 PM >   Posted by Krazy I still don't quite grasp what your arguement is. So far all I've been able to pick out amongst the cluttered language is that you think others are overglamorizing exploration. Of course we do it for our own purposes. If you're here discussing it just because you want to belong to "the scene" and think that makes you cool, then you've got the wrong driving force. Fuckin' A. All these polotics makes me wanna just sit down and watch goonies again to clear my head. You don't have to understand my argument. I have no interest in persuing this. And no, I'm not here discussing it to "belong" anywhere- obviously I'm quite the oddball here considering I don't have the same beliefs as everyone else here (see disagreement above). I just expressed my opinion as to what the guy should do concerning a locked door, and defended it. MacGyver  Location: St Paul, Minnesota Gender: Male "Someone go find me a paperclip, a D-cell battery, and a cheese grater"  |  Re: Ethical Question <Reply # 24 on 10/13/2003 8:23 PM >   I would like to understand your arguement. Please recap us on the basics of what your view is. Be short and to-the-point so I don't have to wade through a bunch of flowery language, too. Like a fiend with his dope / a drunkard his wine / a man will have lust for the lure of the mine "If you are not part of the solution, you are not dissolved in the solvent." A Casual Fellow  I don't like UER. Location: New York City  |  Re: Ethical Question <Reply # 25 on 10/13/2003 8:26 PM >   I don't feel like it. A brute (non-flowery) reply. Hey man, if I re-state everything over again, there's no doubt that you will reply with a counter-argument, and then I'll reply again- it won't end and there won't be an agreement. I'd rather spare myself the trouble. I hope you understand that. MacGyver  Location: St Paul, Minnesota Gender: Male "Someone go find me a paperclip, a D-cell battery, and a cheese grater"  |  Re: Ethical Question <Reply # 26 on 10/13/2003 8:30 PM >   Alright, we'll end it here. I guess I'm right and you're wrong, since you forfeit the arguement. I love it when I'm right. Like a fiend with his dope / a drunkard his wine / a man will have lust for the lure of the mine "If you are not part of the solution, you are not dissolved in the solvent." A Casual Fellow  I don't like UER. Location: New York City  |  Re: Ethical Question <Reply # 27 on 10/13/2003 8:31 PM >   Alright. You're right. Servo   |  Re: Ethical Question <Reply # 28 on 10/13/2003 10:06 PM >   Phew! Thank goodness. I thought we were heading towards an invocation of Godwin's Law there for a bit. My take on the question: if you can open/destroy the lock in a relatively peaceful manner (no explosives, etc.) and replace with it a better, working lock, then I believe it fits with the general system of ethics I'd go by. Again, the issue isn't really that you are tresspassing (since, unless you damage something, in my opinion that is a victimless crime) but whether you are creating a hazardous situation for others. And before anyone jumps on my ass: this is a question of ethics, which are not the same as the law. Something can be morally wrong without being legally wrong, and vice versa. Ca53  Location: Seattle Gender: Male  |  |  Re: Ethical Question <Reply # 29 on 10/13/2003 10:48 PM >   Oof, I go to school for a few hours and look what happens. Sorry for inciting an argument, and thanks for everyones input. Based on what everyone has said, I think that when and if it comes down to it I will cut the lock and replace it with a comparable one. Thank you everyone ~Team 107~ Rockman  Noble Donor  |  Re: Ethical Question <Reply # 30 on 10/15/2003 5:01 AM >   I don't see tresspassing as unethical or immoral. When I go in I hurt nobody, and I accept any risks that may be present. Especially if the building has been left derelict, as far as I'm concerned it's public domain. I am willing to "open" a building provided that the opening is something that's only going to be found by serious explorers, and if there's no other choice(isn't half the fun FINDING an opening). If something takes a three-story climb with no vertical handholds and is camoflaged, then stupid drunk vandals and 9 year old kids aren't going to be able to find it. Kicking in a first-floor door in a well-travelled area, on the other hand, is GOING to attract those guys. Believe me, I fucking hate it when a good building is ruined just as much as the owners. When you trash places like that you ruin it for future explorers and squatters. It's just common sense, don't advertise how to get in, and don't make openings visible. Hobo  Location: UK Gender: Male  |  Re: Ethical Question <Reply # 31 on 10/15/2003 12:05 PM >   I don't think it's hypocritical to call things like vandalism "unethical". Yes, UE is unethical too (for the reasons ACF said), but so is most of life. e.g. If you drive a car you're potentially putting other drivers and pedestrians at risk, if you climb mountains you risk needing to be rescued, where the rescuer will be on the line. Everyone does things for convenience/enjoyment that put others at risk. The fact that UE happens to also be illegal doesn't mean we forfeit the right to call other things "unethical". MothMan  Noble Donor Location: The Gem City Gender: Male If you didn't bring back any pictures with you then you obviously weren't there!  |  Re: Ethical Question <Reply # 32 on 10/15/2003 7:45 PM >   Wull-lll... as Jester and "Mr. Casual" have eloquently demonstrated, the concept of ethics is indeed, a very personal one. And for what it's worth, I happen to agree with both of them, on two specific points. I concur with the Wraith-Man that preservation is important. It's near the top of the list, in fact. My list, that is. You see, I WILL climb your fence, walk through your door, slide under your gate, wade through your tunnel, and tiptoe past your security system, if I can get away with it. That's me. And I'm fine with that. Doesn't matter to me who owns it or what it's there for, if I feel so compelled to try, and if I judge I can do it and not get caught, I likely will trespass on your property (lands or structures). Expect it, even. BUT... I WILL NOT smash your window, destroy your door, ruin your lock, put a hole in your wall (or roof), or damage your security system. Why? Only one reason for me: I don't like to advertise where I'm at, where I've been, or how I gained access. I DO respect others property, but that is NOT the primary reason I choose to preserve others property. I don't want the public at large to know what I do. That's my business. The Casual Fellow points out that, at its heart and at a minimum, UE involves breaking the law, i.e. trespass laws. (One might argue further that it's not possible to "UE" and not break the law. But I digress.) Back to the point. He's right. If that community has trespassing ordinances, then I violate 'em when I hop your fence. My sense of ethics permits me to do this. Yours might not. Too bad. No matter. I do not rationalize my actions, or moralize my trespasses. I'm intellectually honest enough to tell you to your "face" what I will, and will not, do. Do with it what you will. As Servo and macsbug point out, "ethics" is not synonymous with the "law." And neither still does "legality" equate to "right." Legal statutes are reflections of the morays of the society, as a whole, that codify them. That's why laws change, and that's why you and I often do not agree with them. So, am I comfortable talking with an explorer like Jester? You betcha! He asserts the responsible -- the ethical -- thing to do would be to replace the lock if you cut it, to restore the area to (almost) like it was and to help prevent others from coming to harm. But his position stems from his own level of personal responsibility. It has nothing to do with "UE," per se. It's who he is. I like it. And I respect it. His standard of personal accountability would naturally show itself in other situations having nothing to do with URBANEX. And am I fine hanging with one like ACF? Yeppers! He does not justify my actions, each time I violate your soveriegn right to your property when I enter uninvited "without privilege." And this is UE. This is where it starts. I feel that that was much of his point. No need to put any window dressing on it. And Jester didn't do that, but I'm inclined to agree some do, whatever their reasonings. I may just cut your lock. Just because. I might just want to see beyond the gate that badly. But my motive will not be malicious, or to hurt you. In general, though, you won't know I was there, because it's not like I can cut your nasty rusty old padlock off and replace it with one just as nasty and rusty and keyed alike. So I'd prolly do something else. But if I did cut it, and I perceived the area to be a threat to folks, I would not leave it any more "open" than it was prior to defeating the lock. I'd do what it takes to make it as secure as it was before I destroyed your property (lock) and invaded your property (lands or structure). And for my final shred of truthfulness, just because I traipse all over your abandoned warehouse DOES NOT mean I condone you doing the same to me. I might not care to have you walking around my buildings, inside or out. Just because I do it, is not my license for you to do it on my property. Double standard? In one sense, of course it is! But by god, it's honest. (And if I never knew you were there, well I guess I wouldn't get upset over my ignorance. And if I figured out you replaced my rotting Master lock with a shiny new one, for whatever reason, well, I'd cut your new one off, put a new one of my own on, and at least be happy my deserted chemical lab was not left open to vagrants and children.) You know, it takes all kinds. All of you in this forum will have hundreds of reasons for urban exploration. But, if you are irresponsible and malicious when you do it, I've got no common ground with you. You may well argue that it's irresponsible of me to trespass (UE) in the first place. My reply is, "Yeah maybe, but at least I won't damage your property while I'm there." And that, is what separates one adventurer from the other. [last edit 10/15/2003 7:50 PM by MothMan - edited 1 times] DSM2nr203  Location: Saratoga Springs, NY Gender: Male  |  |  Re: Ethical Question <Reply # 33 on 10/16/2003 7:15 AM >   This is for everyone that considers breaking the lock unethical. What about bypassing a lock? Theres an old trailer(like the ones semi's tow) in a field near my friends house. Its been sitting there for like a year and theres some random stuff around it(a dresser, some tires,ladder, a tank of gasoline, etc..) anyway, the only way in without cutting the lock is to remove the bolts from the piece of metal the locks holding closed. Now, would this be considered unethical since nothings getting broken, the bolts are going to be put back in and nothing will be stolen? I honestly dont see anything wrong with it(other than the fact that its a pain in the ass to get a grip on the nut without the bolt turning too) but I guess its just a matter of opinion.(btw the trailers like only 50 feet from the road so theres no chance of smashing it open without being caught) Macsbug  Noble Donor Location: St. Paul, MN Gender: Male Safety First!  |  |  Re: Ethical Question <Reply # 34 on 10/16/2003 2:17 PM >   I don't see unbolting a door as being unethical, it's just like popping a manhole - make sure to put it back in after you are done. "Believe those who are seeking the truth; doubt those who find it." Pazrul  Location: Seattle, WA Gender: Male  |  |  Re: Ethical Question <Reply # 35 on 10/16/2003 7:38 PM >   Does that also apply to taking a door handle off? There is a door that is chained closed, but the chain goes through a pull handle connected only by 4 screws. If I take the screws out and then put them back on when I'm finished, is that alright? "One must still have chaos in oneself to be able to give birth to a dancing star." ~Team107~ Macsbug  Noble Donor Location: St. Paul, MN Gender: Male Safety First!  |  |  Re: Ethical Question <Reply # 36 on 10/16/2003 8:13 PM >   But if in the end you leave it in the same condition as when you came to it, I see no problem. "Take only pictures, leave only footprints." "Believe those who are seeking the truth; doubt those who find it." Chud  Try a 211, you'll just get 187'd...  |  Re: Ethical Question <Reply # 37 on 10/16/2003 8:40 PM >   Posted by Pazrul Does that also apply to taking a door handle off? There is a door that is chained closed, but the chain goes through a pull handle connected only by 4 screws. If I take the screws out and then put them back on when I'm finished, is that alright? This is a forum for discussing urban exploration. We may talk about ethics and stuff, and get high and mighty about our own opinions, but when it comes down to it, only you can decide what is right for you. Actually, let me rephrase that. Only you can decide what you will be able to do, that will still let you sleep at night. If you think it's not right to unscrew that door, then don't. But if you think that it's ok, then screw that knob like there's no tomorrow. As for what I would do in the situation, my dad had better not need his toolkit that night, because a certain Black and Decker power-drill would be involved in some recreational tresspassing. Provided it could be properly camo'd... Nobody will not agree with the Russians, ever on anything. -Kimmo MacGyver  Location: St Paul, Minnesota Gender: Male "Someone go find me a paperclip, a D-cell battery, and a cheese grater"  |  Re: Ethical Question <Reply # 38 on 10/16/2003 8:49 PM >   I'm with chud. If you can unscrew/bolt/thread it to help get in and still put it back like it used to be, then I'd go for it. A classic application of this theory is removing hingepins to get a locked (but cheaply made) door down. I might shy away however if the screws are almost stripped and taking them out might put them over the edge or something. Like a fiend with his dope / a drunkard his wine / a man will have lust for the lure of the mine "If you are not part of the solution, you are not dissolved in the solvent." Freak  Location: Usually Alaska, now MSP. Gender: Male Hypocrite  |  |  Re: Ethical Question <Reply # 39 on 10/17/2003 2:28 AM >   The only time I felt bad about gaining access to somewhere was when I physically removed an entire door, only to find that it had been protecting some valuable equipment instead of just an empty tunnel. I knew it was only a matter of time before locals opened the door anyway (it was the 2nd of 3 barriers to the tunnel, and the only one still standing after many obvious attempts by stoned teens with screwdrivers and hammers. My friend and I got a little carried away and pulled the pins out of the hinges, but my hammer broke and we weren't able to replace the pins afterwards. Once we got in we found that the far end of the tunnel was being used as storage for a hardware store and engine repair place, so after leaving we notified the city anonymously that "some vandals seem to have broken down such and such a door". Hopefully they were able to repair it (and better than it was before), but we felt like assholes for leaving the place wide open like that. I've done some lock cutting in other places when I absolutely couldn't find any other way around, but I was always able to justify it to myself and usually to fix it afterwards (ex: take a cut combination padlock, disassemble it, decode the combo, buy an identical one, reprogram it, replace ) Turn off the internet and go play outside. http://spamusement...hp/comics/view/137 UER Forum > Archived UE Tutorials, Lessons, and Useful Info > Ethical Question (Viewed 1223 times)  1 2 3 4   All content and images copyright © 2002-2024 UER.CA and respective creators. Graphical Design by Crossfire. To contact webmaster, or click to email with problems or other questions about this site: UER CONTACT View Terms of Service | View Privacy Policy | Server colocation provided by Beanfield This page was generated for you in 125 milliseconds. Since June 23, 2002, a total of 741169305 pages have been generated.