 |
|
|
UER Store
|
|
sweet UER decals:
|
|
|
|
Activity
|
|
758 online
Server Time:
2024-05-03 19:55:29
|
|
|
 DarkTreader
   
Gender: Male
 |  | Motion Detector Detector?
< on 10/15/2003 4:20 AM >
|  | | | Does anyone know a way to determine if a motion detector (or any suitable electrical device, I'd figure), other than grabbing the bare wire and going 'Oooh, that tingles'? In the PU tunnels, there are detectors, but we're unsure if they're active. If they're active, then it makes things harder. If not, then we waltz by and have free reign on the underbelly of campus.
kthxbai
footsteps light, flashlights bright
-~ DT
Losers go home... winners go home and fuck the prom queen |
|
darkism
 
Gender: Male
hop on the bandwagon
| | Re: Motion Detector Detector?
<Reply # 1 on 10/15/2003 4:23 AM >
| | | | I'd like to add that "run up to it and see if the little blue light is blinking" is not a valid answer. Those can be turned off you know :p
|
|
King Pie
Location: London, Ontario, Canada
Gender: Male
| |  | Re: Motion Detector Detector?
<Reply # 2 on 10/15/2003 4:27 AM >
|  | | | I doubt all motion detectors have lights on them..
Here is what I see you're main obstical will be.. motion detectors detect motion through changes in light patters, therefor they recieve input as opposed to send out signals. I think it would make any sort of attempt at a detection device usless.
Anyway to make wherever pitch black.. then put a little bit of black tape over it or soemthing.. technically it shouldnt' see a change in that.
[last edit 10/15/2003 4:31 AM by King Pie - edited 1 times]
Chained at the ankles, bound at the wrists
Stuffed into mail-sacks and tossed into drifts |
|
darkism
Gender: Male
hop on the bandwagon
| | Re: Motion Detector Detector?
<Reply # 3 on 10/15/2003 4:29 AM >
| | | | Well, the PU ones do:
But yea, there has to be a way without purchasing a $20+ "electricity detector" as mentioned earlier, or just setting a bunch off and running from whomever comes :o
I'm surprised no one mentioned a detection device in the "Defeating PIR sensors" thread....
[last edit 10/15/2003 4:33 AM by darkism - edited 1 times]
|
|
Macsbug
Noble Donor
Location: St. Paul, MN
Gender: Male
Safety First!
| |  | Re: Motion Detector Detector?
<Reply # 4 on 10/15/2003 5:03 AM >
| | | | Well that is the problem with PIR, becouse it is passive, and does not actually transmit out a beam.
The only way to detect if it is working/not might be with an electricity tester.
Does anybody know if it would give off any interferance? like a tv, moniter, etc. would?
If so, it could be detected through the interferance, but even if it did give some off, it would be so weak that I would assume it would be basicly unmeaserable.
"Believe those who are seeking the truth; doubt those who find it." |
|
Shane
Moderator
Location: Bronx, NY
Gender: Male
| |  |  | | | Re: Motion Detector Detector?
<Reply # 5 on 10/15/2003 5:54 AM >
| | | | Passive means it doesn't output anything, so it can't be detected any more than an alarm clock can be detected. The only way to test it would be to see if its getting power by directly testing it. In other words, to test it, you would have to get close enough to set it off.
Your best bet to see if its working would be to get a group of people, have them stand around possible entrances to the tunnels or building in areas that are not illegal to be in. Give them radios. Have one ballsy person go in there and go apeshit trying to set off sensors and then run the hell out. Then you wait. If someone shows up then you know they are active and being monitored. If they don't show up, maybe make one more run just in case, and then go for it. We've used variations of this technique on several occasions and it works quite well. Might be a bit harder to communicate with that person in the tunnels via radio, so they'll just have to be quick about things.
"Because there's no possibility of real disaster, real risk, we're left with no chance for real salvation. Real elation. Real excitement. Joy. Discovery. Invention. The laws that keep us safe, these same laws condemn us to boredom. Without access to true chaos, we'll never have true peace. Unless everything can get worse, it won't get any better." -Chuck Palahniuk |
|
ReAct
Location: Northern Jersey... For now.
Gender: Male
| | | Re: Motion Detector Detector?
<Reply # 6 on 10/15/2003 7:16 AM >
| | | | You posted a picture of these suckers in another thread, one had what looked like a piece of non-metallic cable suppling it power. A non-contact voltage sensor, http://www.uer.ca/forum_showthread.asp?fid=1&threadid=2718, when held against that piece of cable would indicate if "line" [120/277] voltage was being supplied.
However, lord knows if these things are run on line voltage or not. They might be low voltage (less than 25V), they might even be direct current, in which case your NCVS would be useless.
If the detector doesn't cover the screws that are holding on the junction box cover, taking off the cover would allow access to the splices that feed that thing, with a little care, you could test each of the splices.
A simpler method is definitely the "Have one ballsy person go in there and go apeshit" approach.
Try it; you'll like it.
-ReAct
"'13.2V...' Thirteen volts. It's thirteen volts? Jesus, I could practically be made of salt water and this wouldn't hurt me."
"That says '13.2kV.'"
"Ohhhh... Thirteen-thousand volts... I suppose that's a little different...." |
|
RadEd
| | Re: Motion Detector Detector?
<Reply # 7 on 10/15/2003 10:52 AM >
| | | | Couldn't DC be detected by an inductor coil because any line with current creates a magnetic field around it. . . probabally have to have a LOT of windings on that coil though.
A wire with voltage might leak a signifigant amount into the air if you had a nice amplification circuit, maybe you could detect it.
[last edit 10/15/2003 10:53 AM by RadEd - edited 1 times]
|
|
Snarg
Gender: Male
| | | | Re: Motion Detector Detector?
<Reply # 8 on 10/15/2003 1:38 PM >
| | | | Unless it is battery operated, the PIR dectector would use AC. Most do not run off of 110V directly and have a small transformer built into them. You *could* use a line voltage detector to see if it is receiving voltage but that is all you could really determine. You still would not know if the unit is turned on and operational.
I spent a little time with Google this morning and found an interesting set of keywords to try: laser defeat passive IR
I took a glace at these links: http://www.bahdayton.com/surviac/archive/ac_surv_newsletter/96_winter/winter.html
| Modeling is critical to understanding the requirements of any IRCM technique to defeat imagers, whereas the component effects work is critical to developing a database for understanding IRCM effects on individual imaging seeker components. With the development of robust laser sources for IRCM applications, many remaining Navy programs concentrate on laser effects on current and future IR threats. The work on laser effects, which has been completed on several modern IR seekers, has demonstrated that lasers can and do defeat those threats. |
And this one, it's in PDF format: www.darpa.mil/DARPATech2002/presentations/spo_pdf/speeches/HAUGE.pdf
Interesting. Talks about a system being developed called MEDUSA to defeat PIR threats.
It is no surprise the military is interested int defeating the PIR threat on the battle field. It seems they are interested in using lasers.
A simple PIR detector could be purchased at Radio Shack for under $20. I don't know what wavelength would be required but has anyone tested the laser pointers used for presentations?
Mean people suck.
Nice people swallow. |
|
Chainsaw
This member has been banned. See the banlist for more information.
Location: Underground, Colorado
Gender: Male
| | | Re: Motion Detector Detector?
<Reply # 9 on 10/15/2003 2:00 PM >
| | | | I installed PIR's for a long time - they don't use AC110 - They run on about 3V DC supplied by the panel or a battery - those look old enough that if they're battery powered unless they've been serviced they're dead. If the wires off the box don't burrow into the wall try following them - you'll find a big metal box where they hook up. Some panels have indicator lights - some don't but it might tell you more about the units status.
Never heard of Unicorn/Unicom (couldn't quite make it out) - but that pic really doesn't look like any PIR I have ever seen - SO either it's not a PIR or I don't know enough about em to be of any use to you.
Edit: Any well installed alarm panel (the big metal box) will have a tamper switch on the alarm panel door - don't open it. Just look for external LED's or an AC power lead.
[last edit 10/15/2003 2:01 PM by Chainsaw - edited 1 times]
Quid latine dictum sit, altum sonatur.
|
|
Servo
| | Re: Motion Detector Detector?
<Reply # 10 on 10/15/2003 8:41 PM >
| | | | As Commander Chainsaw, those things are probably only running on 3VDC. With that kind of piddly voltage, unless there's a hell of a lot of current (and there won't be; I'd be surprised if it was even 10-20 mA) you won't be able to detect it with a hotstick or RF detector without being right next to the thing.
So yeah, try the "set em off and see what happens" method.
|
|
ReAct
Location: Northern Jersey... For now.
Gender: Male
| | | Re: Motion Detector Detector?
<Reply # 11 on 10/15/2003 10:51 PM >
| | | | Posted by RadEd
Couldn't DC be detected by an inductor coil because any line with current creates a magnetic field around it. . . probabally have to have a LOT of windings on that coil though.
A wire with voltage might leak a signifigant amount into the air if you had a nice amplification circuit, maybe you could detect it.
|
Without some really sophisto gear, detecting low-level stable electromagnetic fields [associated with DC] is diffricult. It is when the EM field is changing [associated with AC] that it induces current/voltage in neighboring conductors, much easier to detect, that's how transformers and non-contact sensors and the like work.
A side note: If that sensor ain't battery-powered, that NM cable is a heavy duty cable assembly for power limited gear. It looks like a real shoddy install, so maybe that was just the easiest way to get the power to the detector or maybe it does run on "line" voltage in which case there is a reason it's supplied by NM cable.
-ReAct
"'13.2V...' Thirteen volts. It's thirteen volts? Jesus, I could practically be made of salt water and this wouldn't hurt me."
"That says '13.2kV.'"
"Ohhhh... Thirteen-thousand volts... I suppose that's a little different...." |
|
uem-Tux
Iron Wok Jan
Location: Montreal
Gender: Male
UE Geek
| | | | Re: Motion Detector Detector?
<Reply # 12 on 10/16/2003 1:10 AM >
|  | | | All this technical electronics talk is all well and good, but in my experience with actual motion detectors, 99% of them have lights (otherwise how could you test them?)
so walk right up, and if you see a light, run right the hell away! 
Urban Exploration Montreal
Why are you the way that you are? |
|
ReAct
Location: Northern Jersey... For now.
Gender: Male
| | | Re: Motion Detector Detector?
<Reply # 13 on 10/16/2003 1:22 AM >
| | | | Awww.
But, I do so love-ed the Geek Speak....
"'13.2V...' Thirteen volts. It's thirteen volts? Jesus, I could practically be made of salt water and this wouldn't hurt me."
"That says '13.2kV.'"
"Ohhhh... Thirteen-thousand volts... I suppose that's a little different...." |
|
Mister Hobbs
| | Re: Motion Detector Detector?
<Reply # 14 on 10/27/2003 4:30 PM >
| | | | Posted by King Pie
I doubt all motion detectors have lights on them..
Here is what I see you're main obstical will be.. motion detectors detect motion through changes in light patters, therefor they recieve input as opposed to send out signals. I think it would make any sort of attempt at a detection device usless.
Anyway to make wherever pitch black.. then put a little bit of black tape over it or soemthing.. technically it shouldnt' see a change in that.
|
The only thing similar to what you are talking about are old PEDs, Photo Electric Devices, a/k/a "Electric Eyes." Only the cheapest of these could be tricked with a mirror or reflector because on the better (more expensive) ones, the light itself was not visible unless you had a filter to view it and it was a certain wavelength in the light spectrum, etc. If you tried to trick it, it would immediately go into alarm because it would recognize the light you were attempting to use as not being the type the sending unit was transmitting, etc.
As for Passive Infrared Devices, PIRs, they do not detect light changes, they detect changes in temperature. A hot room with the AC turned off all night long could cause a false alarm at 6:00 a.m. when the AC is timed to come on (some places do this sort of thing). Same thing for the wintertime, a blast of hot air out of a heating duct with an improperly aimed PIR can cause falsing as the temperature drastically changes in the room/environment.
The only way the "tape" thing would work is if you had prior access to the area when the alarm was off. What you describe will set the system off anyway. It's not going to work on anything that is turned on, it will instantly go into alarm.
Posted by Commander Chainsaw
I installed PIR's for a long time - they don't use AC110 - They run on about 3V DC supplied by the panel or a battery - those look old enough that if they're battery powered unless they've been serviced they're dead. If the wires off the box don't burrow into the wall try following them - you'll find a big metal box where they hook up. Some panels have indicator lights - some don't but it might tell you more about the units status. |
For better security companies, they would be powered on the low voltage you suggest and the battery would be a back-up in case of power failures, etc., the power supply for the PIRs, etc., is also a charging unit in most cases (better systems, U.L. Grade equipment.) for Ni-Cad batteries in the unit.
Posted by uem-Tux
All this technical electronics talk is all well and good, but in my experience with actual motion detectors, 99% of them have lights (otherwise how could you test them?) |
They can be turned off with some controls now so crafty people cannot walk test them prior to illegal entry. The LEDs can also be cut on the customer's request after installation and this is not rare.
It is common for burglars to "walk test" systems to find coverage, old trick. That's why they can be disconnected or otherwise disabled and sometimes are.
|
|
RadEd
| | Re: Motion Detector Detector?
<Reply # 15 on 10/27/2003 6:58 PM >
| | | | As for Passive Infrared Devices, PIRs, they do not detect light changes, they detect changes in temperature.
|
Heat causes light to be emitted. Body heat makes infrared light. If we were hotter, the light radiated would be within visible range.
|
|
Mister Hobbs
| | Re: Motion Detector Detector?
<Reply # 16 on 10/27/2003 7:26 PM >
| | | | Technically that might be interesting, however, as far as circumventing something and explaining the futility of trying to do it as well as the original context of the member I quoted? It does not matter. Speaking from the security industry, they detect changes in temperature, the fact that this may be defined technically as "light" is inconsequential to the subject at hand.
Most of the better PIRs (are we only going to talk about R.S. garbage?) have a memory built in, the technology goes back a couple/few decades, back to Microwave and UltraSonic protection as well. That memory is held, you cannot walk slow enough to get by it because it remembers what it detected, etc. We used to call them "Three Steps." The better pieces of individual protection would let you get that far and go into alarm.
Now, PIRs have a terrible reputation for falsing too. Microwave protection was used a lot some years ago, people would point them (aim) incorrectly and the device would detect people and vehicles, etc., outside of the building and cause a false alarm. They were good if used correctly.
UltraSonics were used but the furniture and walls, etc., in a given area could shield an intruder from the patterns emitted by the device as well.
Because PIRs have been used so much and have been so problematic for some companies and environments, the trend when I left that particular area of the security industry was towards better "Dual-Tech" (Dual - Technology) pieces of protection that combined two types of detection. For example, PIR and Microwave. Both had to go into alarm to send an alarm to the control. This cut down on false alarms to a large degree. If the PIR side only went off, the alarm would not be registered at the control, both "Technologies" had to go into alarm for that to happen.
All of that aside, when you speak of "light" in this industry, it's fairly common to be referring to PEDs.
|
|
Stalker
Location: Hamilton
Your Resident Red Commie Bastard
| | Re: Motion Detector Detector?
<Reply # 17 on 10/29/2003 7:54 AM >
| | | | Most of motion detectors are using IR witch is visable on old video cameras. Not sure about new ones. Wires under power is really easy. You need induction detector the one telephone guys are using. It'll make a static noise near source of any power objects.
[last edit 10/29/2003 7:57 AM by Stalker - edited 1 times]
|
|
Mickael
Moderator
Location: Canada
Gender: Male
| | Re: Motion Detector Detector?
<Reply # 18 on 10/30/2003 2:37 AM >
| | | | If the motion detector wire was exposed. Will it set off an alarm if I just cut the wire without getting in the PIR "range" ?
Need forum-related help / Besoin d'aide reliée au forum ? Contact a moderator |
|
Macsbug
Noble Donor
Location: St. Paul, MN
Gender: Male
Safety First!
| | | Re: Motion Detector Detector?
<Reply # 19 on 10/30/2003 3:46 AM >
| | | | Posted by syn
If the motion detector wire was exposed. Will it set off an alarm if I just cut the wire without getting in the PIR "range" ?
|
That has been covered before, and yes you would probebly set off the alarm, it would be a stupid idea to cut the wire.
"Believe those who are seeking the truth; doubt those who find it." |
|
|
|
All content and images copyright © 2002-2024 UER.CA and respective creators. Graphical Design by Crossfire.
To contact webmaster, or click to email with problems or other questions about this site:
UER CONTACT
View Terms of Service |
View Privacy Policy |
Server colocation provided by Beanfield
This page was generated for you in 312 milliseconds. Since June 23, 2002, a total of 740369139 pages have been generated.
|
|
