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 White Rabbit
   
Women's Advocate
Location: Missouri
Gender: Male
 |  |  | Getting busted from your website?
< on 12/8/2003 11:47 PM >
|  | | | (If this has been discussed before, feel free to post the relevent thread, because I couldn't figure out what to search for to find any.)
I showed my UE website to someone the other day. They though it was cool, but they were EXTREMELY concerned about it basically being evidence of a crime. They were worried that the authorities might be able to track me down because of my website. I've never worried about this, and I won't after this and will continue to post about my explorations. Obviously, most of you with UE websites aren't worried about this either. But it did get me wondering.
Let's talk hypothetical. If the owners of an abandoned site see your website and see that you were trespassing there (with pictures and all), is there a legal way for them to get you? Could they get a case against you, enough to subpoena your webhost and get your real identity? Or are we completely safe on free speech grounds?
I'm not worried about it either way, but I am curious if anyone knows.
--WR
Underground Ozarks http://www.undergroundozarks.com
Missouri, Arkansas, Oklahoma, and Kansas |
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RRTX
Location: Fort Worth, TX
Gender: Male
| | Re: Getting busted from your website?
<Reply # 1 on 12/8/2003 11:55 PM >
|  | | | I think you are fine, the main thing I would do is not post pictures where you can identify anyones face. Without a face it will be nearly impossible prove who it is in the pictures. Also I would keep from giving exact dates and times when you were there, that is a real good thing especially in case anything bad happened to happen at the location on the same date you were there. Without positive ID of the people in the pics and without proof of when you were there, I don't think you will find anyone that is going to waste the time to prosecute.
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Freak
 
Location: Usually Alaska, now MSP.
Gender: Male
Hypocrite
| | | Re: Getting busted from your website?
<Reply # 2 on 12/9/2003 12:11 AM >
| | | | I'm sure if the police or someone like your local university or municipality got interested they could track you down, IP records aren't too hard to get from hosting companies, and if you update your site from campus they can track the transfers back to you. My paranoia about this comes and goes, but the only people I'm really worried about are the university police and administration. I'm sure if they found the site (even though most of the UAF stuff has been changed) they could quickly identify me as the author.
Turn off the internet and go play outside.
http://spamusement...hp/comics/view/137 |
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statik
Location: colorado
There has got to be more to life than just being really, really, really, ridiculously good-looking.
| | | Re: Getting busted from your website?
<Reply # 3 on 12/9/2003 12:48 AM >
| | | | I remember Comm. Chainsaw saying something about how these guys got tacked by the feds.
...but only because it was a fed-owned site in the first place.
| Let's talk hypothetical. If the owners of an abandoned site see your website and see that you were trespassing there (with pictures and all), is there a legal way for them to get you? Could they get a case against you, enough to subpoena your webhost and get your real identity? Or are we completely safe on free speech grounds? |
That's good. Use the first amendment. But take a look at four, five and six, too.
Just cover up the faces and you'll be fine.
And of course, at this point in time (at least in the U.S.), the authorities are all gonna be running internet searches for anarchists, communists, terrahrists, liberals, abortionists, and homosexuals.
As long as Bush is in office, you're in the clear.
None more black.. |
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HauntedPA
Location: Anywhere and Everywhere
Gender: Female
What do you mean the rum is gone?!
| | Re: Getting busted from your website?
<Reply # 4 on 12/9/2003 2:11 AM >
| | | | Actually I know of a site that was forced down by the state in Pennsylvania. The group, The Breaker Boys, were shut down for doing UE in abandoned mines. Now I don't know all of the details, but I don't really see how going into abandoned mines would be particularly safe. Especially in the NE of Pennsylvania. Maybe this is the reasoning behind it?
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Shane
Moderator
Location: Bronx, NY
Gender: Male
| |  |  |  | | Re: Getting busted from your website?
<Reply # 5 on 12/9/2003 3:58 AM >
| | | | Well, the burden of proof would be on them. They have to prove that you were there and without circumstantial evidence, that wuold be pretty difficult. Just be carefull with pictures you post. As long as your face or any other unique features are in it, then you should be alright.
"Because there's no possibility of real disaster, real risk, we're left with no chance for real salvation. Real elation. Real excitement. Joy. Discovery. Invention. The laws that keep us safe, these same laws condemn us to boredom. Without access to true chaos, we'll never have true peace. Unless everything can get worse, it won't get any better." -Chuck Palahniuk |
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White Rabbit
Women's Advocate
Location: Missouri
Gender: Male
| | | Re: Getting busted from your website?
<Reply # 6 on 12/9/2003 4:24 AM >
| | | | Sounds like I'm covered then. All the pictures on my site have the faces blocked out and big white rabbit heads covering my face. Good to know.
Here's another question for you guys that doesn't really need a second thread. If you UE'ed a really sensitive site (let's say a dam, since there are lots in my area), would you put that on your site? We all know that dams and some other places are HIGH risk since 9-11. If you did one of these places, would you actually post it on your site? There's at least one large dam in this area that I'm positive I could get in and out of without being caught, but I gotta be honest. The idea of putting pictures of that expedition on my site where anyone including the government can see it does scare me.
Would you guys UE something that has the potential to make you a domestic terrorist? And if you did, would you actually put it on your site?
--WR
Underground Ozarks http://www.undergroundozarks.com
Missouri, Arkansas, Oklahoma, and Kansas |
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RRTX
Location: Fort Worth, TX
Gender: Male
| | Re: Getting busted from your website?
<Reply # 7 on 12/9/2003 4:31 AM >
| | | | I don't think I would put something sensitive like a dam on there, that is likely to draw an investigation if it's seen by the wrong person.
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Freak
Location: Usually Alaska, now MSP.
Gender: Male
Hypocrite
| | | Re: Getting busted from your website?
<Reply # 8 on 12/9/2003 5:12 AM >
| | | | http://freak.minimanga.com/dam.htm
I've got a bunch of stuff that could be considered "sensitive" locations on my site, but nothing I'm too concerned about. I did take down my photos of Washington DC tunnels after 9/11.
Turn off the internet and go play outside.
http://spamusement...hp/comics/view/137 |
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darkism
Gender: Male
hop on the bandwagon
| | Re: Getting busted from your website?
<Reply # 9 on 12/9/2003 8:13 AM >
| | | | The campus police were extremely interested in my site for a long time, hitting it every day and examining the photos I had with people in them. Rumour has it they were investigating a theft [of CHAIRS OMG] from an area that we had explored around the same time, and since we were the easy targets, decided to implicate us in said crime.
I had previously obscured the faces with a mosaic strip across the eyes, but after this incident I went to a full mosaic around the face, and finally to just blacking it out altogether.
Either the police here really don't care anymore about me [I haven't updated the site in months], or they want to find me but can't (if this is the case, I have absolutely no idea how they haven't found me yet...)
[last edit 12/9/2003 8:15 AM by darkism - edited 2 times]
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Johnny Bravo
Location: more than 6 feet under (WI)
Gender: Male
| | | Re: Getting busted from your website?
<Reply # 10 on 12/9/2003 9:12 AM >
| | | | Posted by WRabbit
Would you guys UE something that has the potential to make you a domestic terrorist? And if you did, would you actually put it on your site?
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I just got my own domain and it worried me a bit that someone could find out who I am. It said something about anyone being able to get info on who you are, how much info or what kind of info it didnt say.
Once I get everything together on my new site, I plan to put up a new update of a sensitive site. When it comes to pictures theres no way to prove who took them or where you got them from.
Admit nothing, Deny everything, Make counter-accusations
[last edit 12/17/2003 2:50 PM by Johnny Bravo - edited 1 times]
adventure without risk is disneyland http://www.infiltraterz.com |
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Chainsaw
This member has been banned. See the banlist for more information.
Location: Underground, Colorado
Gender: Male
| | | Re: Getting busted from your website?
<Reply # 11 on 12/9/2003 1:38 PM >
| | | | There is some stuff you shouldn't post and some stuff you should. I think you should be real straightforward about what you're doing and why. Then make sure the identities are blanked out in the photos.
I've gotten all kinds of strange military and government hits on my page and unless I'm part of some on-going investigation I doubt anything will come of it. I mean, sure my domain is registered to me with my address and my phone number and my email - so it's not like I'm 'hiding' or anything.
I think registering false information in the domain registration will probably attract more attention and raise more suspicion than some weird guy in Colorado who likes to crawl into muddy holes.
There have been several sites visited by Subciety and never mentioned on the web - stuff I don't want to be held accountable for tresspassing on. Stuff where I had absolutely no right to be once I found out where it was I was...
But all in all if they want to drag my ass into court they will have to show the judge my website in whole, not just excerpts and I'm prepared for him to make a decision about how criminal my actions are and really, how can a jury be convinced you're guilty of anything?
I dunno, I would probably cave under pressure - "Take down your website or else!" might get the site down to avoid costly legal expenses, but if it went to court I think I'd be fine.
Maybe we should start a UE Defense Fund and retain a lawyer or something...
Quid latine dictum sit, altum sonatur.
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Kimmo
Noble Donor
| | Re: Getting busted from your website?
<Reply # 12 on 12/9/2003 2:30 PM >
| | | | I have thought about this and hell if they are ready to drag me to court, waste everybody's money, time and energy, I might just as well pay the fines and have a good time in the court.
Seriously, if they put so much energy into getting me to pay a few fines, so be it... Just wasting the limited resources of the society...
That's why I have written a line into my page, that I'm maintaining it with my own name to show that I have nothing to hide.
And in anycase, it would be pointless of trying to hide. The last address to my page could have been traced with a single phone call from my internet operator and now with a domain, I'm sure that the company would be more than willing to give my name and billing address...and besides...they could find it without a phone call, from _who is_ service.
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Ninjalicious
Gone, but always with us
Location: Toronto
| | | Re: Getting busted from your website?
<Reply # 13 on 12/9/2003 3:28 PM >
| | | | What I've heard is that trespassing is such a minor offense that if they don't catch you red-handed they won't bother trying to prosecute.
The only person I've ever heard of getting in trouble because of content on a UE website was GnomeToys, and the real reason he got a visit from the police was that he found a gun in a drain and didn't turn it over to the authorities. So, don't do that.
Ninj
http://www.infiltration.org
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HauntedPA
Location: Anywhere and Everywhere
Gender: Female
What do you mean the rum is gone?!
| | Re: Getting busted from your website?
<Reply # 14 on 12/9/2003 3:55 PM >
| | | | Posted by Kimmo
That's why I have written a line into my page, that I'm maintaining it with my own name to show that I have nothing to hide.
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I hear ya on that one! Myself and my group feel that we're doing nothing wrong therefore have posted our pictures unaltered on the site. Evem a few of us at actual locations. Sure those in the group that wish to remain obscured may do so, but most of us aren't worried about it. We've got a few hits recently that were from a questionable type of IP address, but just shrugged it off.
I mean if they really want to shut you down...they will. But I think for the most part they don't really care unless some line they've drawn in the preverbial sand is crossed.
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CTExplorer
This member has been banned.
Gender: Male
| | Re: Getting busted from your website?
<Reply # 15 on 12/10/2003 9:57 PM >
| | | | Here if you get caught for trespassing it's a fine . . but there's also a 6 month statute of limitations . . so unless they can prove that YOU were there less than 6 months ago they can't do anything. of course photos of you standing there with the daily paper giving the date without blurring your face might not be a good idea . . of course its no stretch to think that just blurring out your face is going to help . . if they care enough to track you down and try to pin something on you a blurry faced photo isnt going to be a huge roadblock.
The fact remains . . don't break 'n enter, don't steal . . don't vandalize and don't make the guards or authorities look like assholes and they shouldn't bother you.
Communism? No thanks, comrade. |
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-=Kid-Sparkle=-
Location: -=HERE=-
Gender: Male
-=8=-
| | Re: Getting busted from your website?
<Reply # 16 on 12/10/2003 11:10 PM >
| | | | I wouldn't worry about it Wrabbit. I think your safe if you don't mention whole anmes, post faces, or do damage. I have visited your site quite a few times and don't see anything to worry about. It is informative IMO.  Keep up the good work, don't give up...ever.
"Being frightened is an experience you can't buy."
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Carrie@HPA
Location: Stuck in Hell.. Still!
Gender: Female
Death, Distruction and Chaos.. At Your Service.
| |  | | | Re: Getting busted from your website?
<Reply # 17 on 12/12/2003 3:01 AM >
| | | | Frankly in my opinion unless they catch you there, redhanded trouble is doubtful. Most places just ask you to leave or state they will fine you. In some states even if they have photo evidence unless they caught you on the location not much can be done about it for the simple fact it's after the point, especially if nothing was damaged.
I know in FL at least, they won't bother to even think about wanting to track you down unless you caused a problem. That's simply due to something in the neighborhood of what was already said. "Yeah I was there but you can't prove that it was last night or two years ago".
If you causing damage to the property that's a totally diffrent story though.
Yes, I'm a bitch but we all knew that.
~*Carrie*~ Co-Founder Haunted Pennsylvania "Because we'll put a boot in your ass, it's the American way" |
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sympathy in chaos
Location: Chicago
Gender: Male
| | | | Re: Getting busted from your website?
<Reply # 18 on 12/17/2003 10:05 AM >
| | | | Posted by Ninjalicious
What I've heard is that trespassing is such a minor offense that if they don't catch you red-handed they won't bother trying to prosecute.
The only person I've ever heard of getting in trouble because of content on a UE website was GnomeToys, and the real reason he got a visit from the police was that he found a gun in a drain and didn't turn it over to the authorities. So, don't do that.
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Very true, people in Chicago were subpoenaed for the Joseph Konopka case. Everyone had trespassed and admitted ot it and as far as I know no one was prosecuted. Including someone that was with him when Konopka got arrested by UIC police.
Before that, if you got caught in the Subways it was assumed you were tagger. You got a citation and we're excorted out. But that was it, now they will book you and run a background check on you.
But as far as I know, CUE was asked to remove the content that Konopka posted, pictures of an abandoned subway station underneath Harold WAshinton and pictures of equipment and utility rooms. They also renamed and hid the location of every location.
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kowalski
| | Re: Getting busted from your website?
<Reply # 19 on 12/17/2003 3:56 PM >
| | | | Sydney Cave Clan got a Cease and Desist order from the local transportation authority demanding they remove all content from their site concerning the properties under the authority's jurisdiction. As a result, they tore out all their coverage of locations until they could find an international host that could remove their site from the legal reach of the RTA. It's been months since that happened, and they unfortunately don't seem to have come up with a new server that would allow them to restore their site to its former glory.
The letter is pretty instructive, and everyone should take a look at it. It is posted on the SydClan web site.
Getting busted from your site doesn't have to mean by law enforcement. It can also mean a government or private land-owner finding out that you're documenting their properties and "encouraging trespass" and taking legal action to remove that content.
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