 |
|
|
UER Store
|
|
sweet UER decals:
|
|
|
|
Activity
|
|
706 online
Server Time:
2024-05-14 18:08:04
|
|
|
 kowalski
   
 |  | Re: Sheppard subway line might get mothballed
<Reply # 60 on 7/29/2007 11:09 AM >
|  | | | Posted by Air 33
I'm speaking on behalf of three managers all with different levels of experience. They all have different skill sets, working in transit certainly isn't worth more, they are equally qualified people. |
It doesn't matter if they're qualified, their experience is in sectors where there isn't as high a ratio of demand : available applicants for the jobs they do. I'm not saying it's right, I'm saying it's economics, and has nothing to do with greedy unions or mismanaged payroll.
| And, just as a note I seriously doubt overtime is calculated into these figures, it generally isn't from what I've seen of other publically released salary information found elsewhere online. |
It definitely is in these figures. You haven't seen it in other publically released salary information because most people in public sector jobs paying more than $100,000 don't work a lot of overtime, or aren't paid for it.
| It's 90%, as noted earlier. |
Salaries and benefits make up 75% of the TTC's operating budget, according to Michael Roache, the TTC's chief financial officer.
| Yeah, but we were not talking about school bus drivers now were we originally? They should be unionized, and many other trades and positions should be as well. |
Some people were.
| Only you possess the masterful art of taking something like an opinion and attempting to elevate it to something 'political'. It's not political, its an opinion and don't try to plaster it otherwise. |
You'd have to have a pretty narrow view of what politics are to argue that the opinions you've taken in this thread are not political. Politics is about more than party platforms, and it includes the social relations between employment sectors we're talking about here.
| If you really did, you'd never enter a discussion with such inflammatory language in the first place |
Inflammatory is apparently anything that challenges the validity of what you're saying.
| It pales in comparison to other systems in other cities in the world and since its a public system I believe everyone in this thread is entitled to their opinion, regardless of how you may disagree with it. |
Those other systems in other cities in the world devote a similar % of their budget to payroll and benefits. What they do have going for them is the commitment of their regional and national governments to subsidize their operating expenditures, something the Province of Ontario got out of the business of doing in the mid-1990s, which coincidentally is exactly when the TTC's service levels took a pronounced nose dive that they've only just recovered from. The TTC is the only major transit system in North America whose provincial/state government does not cover part of their operating budget.
You are entitled to an opinion, and I'm entitled to challenge it rigorously where it's lacking, which gets us to...
| I don't think there are any drivers/operators/collectors on that list. I could be wrong though, I'm too lazy to scroll through the whole thing now |
If you're too lazy to actually read information before going off on an outrage trip about it, why exactly should we even listen to your opinion? There are 17 operators on the list. There are 0 collectors on the list.
|
|
kowalski
| | Re: Sheppard subway line might get mothballed
<Reply # 61 on 7/29/2007 11:11 AM >
| | | | Posted by Stewie
I'm not sure about collectors, but collectors are commonly operators with many years of seniority. It's not a "bottom of the job chain" position.
|
Collectors may have previous experience as operators, but they don't get paid as much as operators, unless they are operators temporarily posted as collectors as part of a light duties regimen following injury or illness.
|
|
kowalski
| | Re: Sheppard subway line might get mothballed
<Reply # 62 on 7/29/2007 12:29 PM >
| | | | Posted by Agent Skelly
That 78% for the NYC Transit, you are talking specially about the Metropolitan Transportation Authority as a whole or specially the bus division which is called "New York City Transit" ?
|
The 78% relates specifically to New York City Transit, which operates both the buses and subways in NYC. I didn't look at the MTA since to do that would be comparing apples to fruit salad -- the MTA also operates commuter bus and rail services, NYC's bridges and tunnels, and their own construction company. As it is, we're comparing apples to giant apples, since the NYCT workforce is nearly four times that of the TTC, but their service profiles are similar and, as noted, NYCT's payroll is a slightly greater % of their budget than in Toronto's case. Transit Chicago's budget and workforce are only slightly larger than the TTC's, and we see there an identical percentage for payroll.
[last edit 7/29/2007 12:43 PM by kowalski - edited 2 times]
|
|
KONG
   
Sus scrofa domestica
Location: Kingston, Ontario
Gender: Male
| | Re: Sheppard subway line might get mothballed
<Reply # 63 on 7/29/2007 1:35 PM >
| | | | Posted by Air 33
I guess it depends on what your comparing them to. Project managers I know who work in the bank as well as in the hospital make between $38,000-$60,000, about half of what these people do.
I've heard the same about hydro workers as well, if I remember the figure right I read in NOW that 70% of the workers at Ontario Power HQ make over $100,000.
It would be nice if everyone else in comparable positions would make as much as they do. I do think a Night Clerk making $100,434 is overkill.
|
The list includes overtime and all taxable benefits.
Where I work, project managers make from $80k-120k. They are not overpaid at all. These people have a certain work experience and specific knowledge that is a hard to find. The TTC would be the same. There cant be that many people out there with highly detailed knowledge of the subway system combined with the experience to run a project.
Yes, $100k a year is too much for a night clerk, but I can guarantee you that that clerk worked stupid hours to get there.
If you want to talk about hydro workers (who's pay shouldn't be public under the law, but somehow is) there is a long list of people paid over $100k.
Hydro One, with a staff of 4300, has 1810 over $100000, so that's 42%.
Ontario Power Generation has 5518 and a staff of 12000. 46%
|
|
Air
Location: Canada
| | Re: Sheppard subway line might get mothballed
<Reply # 64 on 7/29/2007 2:39 PM >
| | | | Posted by Stewie
It listed more than a couple of operators on there, which I believe is the term used to describe bus drivers/subway operators/streetcar drivers. I'm not sure about collectors, but collectors are commonly operators with many years of seniority. It's not a "bottom of the job chain" position.
|
No definitely not, I Understand that everyone on that list, hopefully has seniority.
"The extraordinary beauty of things that fail." - Heinrich von Kleist |
|
Air
Location: Canada
| | Re: Sheppard subway line might get mothballed
<Reply # 65 on 7/29/2007 2:41 PM >
| | | | Posted by El Diablo
The list includes overtime and all taxable benefits.
Where I work, project managers make from $80k-120k. They are not overpaid at all. These people have a certain work experience and specific knowledge that is a hard to find. The TTC would be the same. There cant be that many people out there with highly detailed knowledge of the subway system combined with the experience to run a project.
Yes, $100k a year is too much for a night clerk, but I can guarantee you that that clerk worked stupid hours to get there.
If you want to talk about hydro workers (who's pay shouldn't be public under the law, but somehow is) there is a long list of people paid over $100k.
Hydro One, with a staff of 4300, has 1810 over $100000, so that's 42%.
Ontario Power Generation has 5518 and a staff of 12000. 46%
|
Hey where did you grab those stats from? I've wanted to look at it a bit more after seeing that NOW article.
"The extraordinary beauty of things that fail." - Heinrich von Kleist |
|
KONG
Sus scrofa domestica
Location: Kingston, Ontario
Gender: Male
| | Re: Sheppard subway line might get mothballed
<Reply # 66 on 7/29/2007 3:13 PM >
| | | | Posted by Air 33
Hey where did you grab those stats from? I've wanted to look at it a bit more after seeing that NOW article.
|
The salary disclosure is here
http://www.fin.gov...rydisclosure/2007/
|
|
Air
Location: Canada
| | Re: Sheppard subway line might get mothballed
<Reply # 67 on 7/29/2007 3:14 PM >
| | | | Posted by kowalski
It definitely is in these figures. You haven't seen it in other publically released salary information because most people in public sector jobs paying more than $100,000 don't work a lot of overtime, or aren't paid for it. |
Perhaps you should have started with that, because generally salary info does not include overtime, which is what I stated as well.
| You'd have to have a pretty narrow view of what politics are to argue that the opinions you've taken in this thread are not political. Politics is about more than party platforms, and it includes the social relations between employment sectors we're talking about here. |
You see that's what I mean. You don't just supply information or correct what someone says when you know otherwise, you always have to have a little inflammatory hook when you do it. SO far I've been accused of being ignorant and cherry picking and being political narrow. Can't you just let your facts speak for themselves minus the insults..?
Never mind, I won't get bent out of shape about it -- I just thought I'd point it out.
| Inflammatory is apparently anything that challenges the validity of what you're saying. |
No not all. I never implied my opinion was the be-all-end-all of this thread, and I clarified that my opinion was not political either. It was just an opinion.
You are entitled to an opinion, and I'm entitled to challenge it rigorously where it's lacking, which gets us to...
If you're too lazy to actually read information before going off on an outrage trip about it, why exactly should we even listen to your opinion? There are 17 operators on the list. There are 0 collectors on the list.
|
I wasn't outraged about it, but I was suprised by the salary listings. And it was like 2am, so yeah I was lazy about looking it up. So far El Diablo has been the most helpful posting the salary list. I don't think were having a discourse here anyhow, but an argument. I don't really want to argue about it even further because I get the impression you just like to take issue with things for sake of argument, and this isn't Epistemology 101, and isn't nearly as interesting either. Note: If you would skip the insults I enjoy fruitful discussion.
Aside: I'd like to hear from more people who work at the TTC to see what they think.
"The extraordinary beauty of things that fail." - Heinrich von Kleist |
|
kowalski
| | Re: Sheppard subway line might get mothballed
<Reply # 68 on 7/29/2007 3:33 PM >
| | | | Posted by Air 33
Perhaps you should have started with that, because generally salary info does not include overtime, which is what I stated as well. |
Yes, when you're personally disclosing to the bank what your salary is and they use it to calculate a loan, you don't project overtime. However, when you tell the Canadian Revenue Agency what you made last year, you disclose everything. When a public body is releasing information on what it paid its employees the previous year, it includes everything. My point was that in other public sector disclosures the fact that they included overtime might not have been significant, to you or to them, because many officials that end up in these disclosures don't work significant amounts of paid overtime (though they may work significant extra hours unpaid). In the case of the TTC, the overtime plays a major role in elevating certain operators and other line staff to this list.
| You see that's what I mean. You don't just supply information or correct what someone says when you know otherwise, you always have to have a little inflammatory hook when you do it. SO far I've been accused of being ignorant and cherry picking and being political narrow. Can't you just let your facts speak for themselves minus the insults..? |
You've said twice now that your opinion is not political. I'm suggesting that all opinions on a subject like this are political. Politics is more than just parties and politicians. If you're going to air an opinion, especially with the amount of handwringing you've displayed in this thread, you had better be willing to accept challenges to it and to defend it against those challenges.
| I don't think were having a discourse here anyhow, but an argument. |
Well, I'd like to hear an actual response from you to the comparisons I've offered regarding payroll percentages, the shortage of people willing to do the job, etc. Again, the TTC payroll and benefits % is 75%, not 90%, and the Commission seems to be in line with other North American integrated transit systems on this. Also, apparently the TTC has problems with recruitment and retention of operators despite paying them what you feel is a seriously inflated wage. How do you respond to that?
[last edit 7/29/2007 3:34 PM by kowalski - edited 2 times]
|
|
AjumTheGreat
 
Location: Stalingrad, Ontario
| | Re: Sheppard subway line might get mothballed
<Reply # 69 on 8/5/2007 8:51 PM >
| | | | The perspective of this discussion is what I find most intriguing. When I moved to Toronto, the price of the TTC was $2. When I left, it was $2.50 about to go up to $2.75. My point? Quite a few people I knew at work and in my neighborhood didn't take the bus because they couldn't AFFORD it. These were ECE's, not KFC jockeys or anything. It's hard to feel bad for BUS DRIVERS when my closest friends were living damn close to the poverty line with college education and providing a service I'll bet most bus drivers would find indispensable. I sick of feeling sorry for overpaid white men. You're job's dangerous? Be glad you're not in Afghanistan in much more danger and getting paid shite.
My solution is this: Lets start a COMPETING busing company, why not make it up of old school buses. Collaborate with the H.S.R.'s green fleet program, put drivers on contract, pay them $15 or so an hour, provide health benefits, mandatory cost of living raises, tuition subsidies, et cetera, et cetera. Oh, and the best part, ONLY employ visible minorities and women from low income neighborhoods to drive them.
But back on topic, if they mothball it, I'm there baby!
"I think Houdini did this once, and if I remember right, he was out of the hospital in no time." |
|
kowalski
| | Re: Sheppard subway line might get mothballed
<Reply # 70 on 8/5/2007 10:31 PM >
| | | | Posted by AjumTheGreat
My solution is this: Lets start a COMPETING busing company, why not make it up of old school buses. Collaborate with the H.S.R.'s green fleet program, put drivers on contract, pay them $15 or so an hour, provide health benefits, mandatory cost of living raises, tuition subsidies, et cetera, et cetera. Oh, and the best part, ONLY employ visible minorities and women from low income neighborhoods to drive them. |
Have fun trying to fill your staffing requirements for round-the-clock service and rush hour surges for a city the size of Toronto at $15/hour. Oh, and if visible minorities and women from low income neighbourhoods aren't applying for these jobs in sufficient numbers for your taste right now, what makes you think they'll want to do the job when you're only willing to pay them $15?
I'd also like to hear how you intend to provide the stop frequency of a typical Toronto bus route with a school bus, and how you plan to accomodate riders with strollers or large objects, not to mention the disabled.
Regardless, nobody who uses transit to commute on a daily basis pays $2.75 per ride. They buy tokens in bulk or they use a monthly or weekly pass (purchases of which have exploded over the past two years, showing that plenty of people can afford transit).
If your ECE friends had a problem making ends meet, then blame the province and the federal government for systematic underfunding of early childhood education, a massive and continuing problem in this country. Don't fall into this politics of resentment and blame the bus drivers, who provide as essential a service to the residents of this city (including its most underprivileged and impoverished) as the ECEs. Blame the province and the feds for not funding preschools and daycare options to the extent that your friends would be valued and compensated as highly as our bus drivers. The province gets away with the current situation in early childhood education the same way that a school bus company does, by exploiting people who can't do any better for themselves. That's what needs to be fixed here in your personal life example, not the wages of transit operators.
As for the cost of fares, you'd like to believe that fares rose from $2 to $2.25 to $2.50 to $2.75 because union wages went up, but that wasn't the reason that fares were rising so quickly. In the mid-1990s the provincial government under the Mike Harris Conservatives eliminated their operating subsidy to the TTC, making it the only major metropolitan transit system in North America not to receive any funding for its operations budget from higher levels of government. Unlike every major transit system in the United States, as well as those in Montreal and Vancouver, the TTC's operations budget is now funded 100% out of Toronto's municipal budget and from the farebox. At the same time they did this, they downloaded responsibility for covering 20% of social and public services such as child care, welfare and mental health to municipal governments across the province.
So the TTC's budget was squeezed on two fronts: it lost provincial funding for its operations budget, and the city council was now saddled with the cost of addressing areas that had historically been 100% funded by the province. They had to slash service drastically, which hurt the low-income riders you're so concerned about far more than the fare increase did, and still they had to raise fares. Only in the past two years have service levels returned to roughly the levels they were at before downloading.
Reality: You get the transit system you pay for. As I've said several times upthread, the TTC has trouble recruiting and retaining operators despite paying them as much as $26.58/hour (after 30 months on the job). You couldn't run this transit system for $15/hour, you couldn't even run a shadow of it. Full stop.
[last edit 8/6/2007 1:24 PM by kowalski - edited 1 times]
|
|
Lord
above and beyond
| | Re: Sheppard subway line might get mothballed
<Reply # 71 on 8/6/2007 12:16 AM >
| | | | so yeah I heard that they arent going to scrap it after all..
but to be honest that thing saves a lot of time.. to get from don mills station to sheppard station , a journey I used to take every day, It takes like 10 minutes by subway and 30 minutes minimum by bus.. plus all of the connecting buses that go out of donmills it really saves a lot of time.. They DO need to make it go further east and west but you have to remember that at don mills station if you go any more east you will hit the Don valley and that will require to go over or under it.. and I still have yet to actually compare the level of the subway tracks and the level of the don valley but under isnt pretty due to traffic and stuff and to go over it might call for a very steep incline up.. it might feel like a roller coaster then require a bridge, then to go back under the houses, various apartment buildings as you get further east.. and more.. it would save time but be a pain in the ass
as for westward there a huge valley before bathurst so another bridge would be necessary or a really deep tunnel.. more craziness
enh.. I like the idea of extending into york region the university line..
PERSONALLY I WOULD RATHER JUST BUY A CAR!!!
I will defeat that which was once untouchable only so that I may now move on |
|
Agent Skelly
 
Web Sheriff
Location: Oregon Territory
Gender: Male
Prenez De L'Avance Avec Chrysler!
| |  |  |  | Re: Sheppard subway line might get mothballed
<Reply # 72 on 8/6/2007 11:45 AM >
| | | | Posted by AjumTheGreat
My solution is this: Lets start a COMPETING busing company, why not make it up of old school buses. Collaborate with the H.S.R.'s green fleet program, put drivers on contract, pay them $15 or so an hour, provide health benefits, mandatory cost of living raises, tuition subsidies, et cetera, et cetera. Oh, and the best part, ONLY employ visible minorities and women from low income neighborhoods to drive them.
|
Canada has the same anti-discrimination labor hiring laws as the US and I can assure you that you can't hire ONLY minorities and women.
Also, keep in mind that you actually to have to apply for a license from the City of Toronto to operate a private inter-urban bus service and I can guarantee you that they won't let you because they would hate to at some point have to merge you into their services to bail you out when you fail.
|
|
SteamPunk
Location: Sailing the seas of sleaze.
| | Re: Sheppard subway line might get mothballed
<Reply # 73 on 8/7/2007 7:05 AM >
| | | | The wages there are about the same as here in Vancouver. I agree that they are slightly over paid. Today is BC day, and i just talked to a driver who is getting over $300 for an 8 hour shift. WAY to much. most of these union people are only in it for themselves, and not the workers as a whole. They only extend their so called "Brotherhood" to other union peoples, when in reality, most other workers are in far more strife than they. These unions have some serious power, and only reserve it for their own ends, and not the blue collar workers as a whole(ie working poor).
It's convenient for them to forget why unions were formed.
I used to be with it, but then they changed what it was. Now what I'm with isn't it, and what's it seems weird and scary to me, and it'll happen to you, too! |
|
|
|
All content and images copyright © 2002-2024 UER.CA and respective creators. Graphical Design by Crossfire.
To contact webmaster, or click to email with problems or other questions about this site:
UER CONTACT
View Terms of Service |
View Privacy Policy |
Server colocation provided by Beanfield
This page was generated for you in 218 milliseconds. Since June 23, 2002, a total of 741730753 pages have been generated.
|
|
