 |
|
|
UER Store
|
|
sweet UER decals:
|
|
|
 kowalski
   
 |  | Re: TTC --- Provincial?
<Reply # 40 on 1/14/2008 5:01 PM >
|  | | | Posted by OCInfiltrator
Could you expand on the CLRV thing? I never heard anywhere that they were a "bad technology". In fact I've heard that they are what kept the streetcars running into the next century.
If they kept the PCCs running, then they would of kept having people trying to elimate the streetcars claiming the "Fleet is old". It's happened in Ottawa and it's happening in Edmonton right now with their trolley buses.
|
The PCCs were better-designed vehicles, and in 1966 there was a plan to introduce an updated PCC model to ply a network of suburban streetcar/LRT lines, including a circle line to serve Warden/Finch/Etobicoke and the airport. Then the province got involved and killed this whole process, first with its unsuccessful GO Urban scheme and then, to save face, by meddling in the process to produce a new streetcar, which resulted in the CLRV. The CLRV was made far too heavy by the provincially-mandated need to be capable of 70 km/h operation, which was a completely useless feature on both the existing urban and envisioned suburban lines -- stops would never be placed far enough apart to justify such speeds.
Part of the fallout from this heaviness is that the physical lines wear out faster and have to be disruptively overhauled. They've managed in recent years to mitigate this to some degree with better track construction techniques, but at great cost -- it has taken several decades and hundreds of millions of dollars to rebuild the existing track system for these vehicles.
Despite being envisioned as a world leader technology that could be exported, the CLRV only ever managed one small international sale. In the judgment of the world's transit operators, the CLRV was "bad technology." They're just too damn heavy -- overbuilt and not flexible enough.
|
|
90rock
 
Location: Calgary
Gender: Male
| | Re: TTC --- Provincial?
<Reply # 41 on 1/16/2008 2:29 PM >
| | | | And the CLRVs and ALRVs are reaching the end of their lives, so they may order some new european EMUs for the network. Unfortunately, the TTC will have to continue the reconstruction of the network and replacing trolley poles with pantographs.
|
|
OCInfiltrator
Location: Ottawa, ON
Gender: Male
| | Re: TTC --- Provincial?
<Reply # 42 on 1/16/2008 3:21 PM >
| | | | Posted by kowalski
The PCCs were better-designed vehicles, and in 1966 there was a plan to introduce an updated PCC model to ply a network of suburban streetcar/LRT lines, including a circle line to serve Warden/Finch/Etobicoke and the airport. Then the province got involved and killed this whole process, first with its unsuccessful GO Urban scheme and then, to save face, by meddling in the process to produce a new streetcar, which resulted in the CLRV. The CLRV was made far too heavy by the provincially-mandated need to be capable of 70 km/h operation, which was a completely useless feature on both the existing urban and envisioned suburban lines -- stops would never be placed far enough apart to justify such speeds.
Part of the fallout from this heaviness is that the physical lines wear out faster and have to be disruptively overhauled. They've managed in recent years to mitigate this to some degree with better track construction techniques, but at great cost -- it has taken several decades and hundreds of millions of dollars to rebuild the existing track system for these vehicles.
Despite being envisioned as a world leader technology that could be exported, the CLRV only ever managed one small international sale. In the judgment of the world's transit operators, the CLRV was "bad technology." They're just too damn heavy -- overbuilt and not flexible enough.
|
Ah I see. Yeah they could of overhauled the PCCs majorly by replacing everything except the body frame it's self. It probably would of allowed it to run another 10-20 years. Oh well.
I saw a interior picture of one of those CLRV liveried PCCs and I notice they also give them a interior look of a CLRV with PCC shaped stuff. Like they got the same interior colour scheme and same seats and everything except with the PCCs features. I liked the job they did on them to make them modernized.
[last edit 1/16/2008 3:22 PM by OCInfiltrator - edited 1 times]
|
|
kowalski
| | Re: TTC --- Provincial?
<Reply # 43 on 1/16/2008 4:08 PM >
| | | | Posted by OCInfiltrator
Ah I see. Yeah they could of overhauled the PCCs majorly by replacing everything except the body frame it's self. It probably would of allowed it to run another 10-20 years. Oh well.
|
No, my point was that they were planning to *replace* them with an updated version of the PCC design, rather than the super-heavy behemoth that ultimately got handed down to them by provincial engineers.
|
|
Agent Skelly
  
Web Sheriff
Location: Oregon Territory
Gender: Male
Prenez De L'Avance Avec Chrysler!
| |  |  |  | Re: TTC --- Provincial?
<Reply # 44 on 1/17/2008 2:03 AM >
| | | | Keep in mind though Canada in general was going through a period of high nationalism and well having streetcars designed by Americans and built by Americans running on a mass transit system kind of interferes with that 
|
|
rz350
  
This member has been banned. See the banlist for more information.
Location: toronto
Gender: Male
The looniest, zaniest, spontaneous, sporadic Impulsive thinker, compulsive drinker, addict
| | Re: TTC --- Provincial?
<Reply # 45 on 1/17/2008 3:07 AM >
| | | | Streetcars suck. Plain and simple. They block car and bicycle traffic. And vice versa, if a car accident on a street car route can not be cleared right away, it backs up transit.
Inb4 "Cars, who cares, we need less" GTFO my internets. I wonder how that food got to your supermarket or any other retail goods got to the store. How do you get your drywall and plywood home? Maybe, just maybe, I dont want to wait 25 minutes in -20 for an overcrowded, unpleasant ride that costs me more then taking my car.
Get rid of LTR. Go with heavy rail and busses.
inb4 but busses make smog.
You note that you do not get free power. The electric power that runs your precious trams came from a generator. Generators require mechanical force. Kind of like a bus. most eletric generation comes from thermal to boil water to make steam to spin turbine. Maybe its coal, or oil, or gas or nuclear. Just run biodiesel and hybrid busses. They can *holy shit* go AROUND traffic and other problems. they can DIVERT onto different routes if that route is 100% fubar.
busses for the win.
ducky 999 |
|
Boffo
Moderator
Location: Smithers, BC
Gender: Male
HONK! HONK!
| | Re: TTC --- Provincial?
<Reply # 46 on 1/17/2008 3:34 AM >
| | | | How does a streetcar block bicycle traffic? Don't cars also block bicycle traffic? Don't buses also block car and bicycle traffic?!
If there's an accident it does delay transit, I'll agree with you there.
I imagine the food got to my supermarket in a transport truck. At one point it went to a distribution centre and eventually made its way to my grocery store. How's that reflect personal vehicle traffic, it doesn't. Its commercial traffic that does that, and guess what, the more residents with vehicles on the road the more delays there is for EVERYONE. Carpooling and transit lowers congestion on our roads to everyones benefits, including yours when you have to get that plywood and drywall home in a car. Streetcars and buses aren't the end of cars and they never will be they just lower road congestion so assholes don't get in there car and drive a few blocks.
Heavy rail costs a shit fuck amount of cash. Cash we don't have. Fail.
I imagine biodiesel and hybrid buses are very costly at this time. In fact I'd think it'd be bat-shit expensive to replace Toronto's entire bus and streetcar fleet with biodiesel and elect-hybrid buses. Especially since the streetcars run on electricity which last I checked is no where near as fucking expensive as gas is lately.
Oh and shit -- where do you think the electricity in those hybrid buses come from? People rubbing balloons on their heads?
I forgot to mention: dedicated streetcar lanes for the win!
[last edit 1/17/2008 3:35 AM by Boffo - edited 1 times]
Here's a lockpick. It might be handy if you, the master of unlocking, take it with you. |
|
Agent Skelly
Web Sheriff
Location: Oregon Territory
Gender: Male
Prenez De L'Avance Avec Chrysler!
| | | | | Re: TTC --- Provincial?
<Reply # 47 on 1/17/2008 3:38 AM >
| | | | And if you want to go with buses for some lame reason...in this day and age you would have to go with electric buses in Toronto because.
And you already have heavy rail...its called GO Transit and one if not the best commuter rail system in North America 
|
|
rz350
This member has been banned. See the banlist for more information.
Location: toronto
Gender: Male
The looniest, zaniest, spontaneous, sporadic Impulsive thinker, compulsive drinker, addict
| | Re: TTC --- Provincial?
<Reply # 48 on 1/17/2008 3:47 AM >
| | | | Hybrid busses the electricity comes from onboard generator. A hybrid uses the onboard engine to charge the electric motor. It saves fuel by, for example, using idle time to make electric power that is now used for tractive effort, instead just spinning a fan belt.
Biodiesel well run in most any diesel engine. Thus converting is really about the busses, its about the fuel supply. You fail.
I dont suggest scrapping the streetcars at once. I say dont replace them with new streetcars, just replace with busses as the lines and rolling stock outlives its lifespan.
Running electric traction locomotives down the city streets is not going to save the world. get off the failroad.
ducky 999 |
|
Boffo
Moderator
Location: Smithers, BC
Gender: Male
HONK! HONK!
| | Re: TTC --- Provincial?
<Reply # 49 on 1/17/2008 4:15 AM >
| | | | Apparently the TTC already has biodiesel and (some) electric hybrid busses.
TTC experimented with bio-diesel fuel as part of the drive for cleaner vehicles. It was initially tested at Queensway garage, and because of its success, all buses in the TTC have been using bio-diesel since June 2006.
The TTC's fleet of CNG Orion V were converted to diesel operation and burn the same bio-diesel mixture as the rest of the fleet; no alternative fuel buses remain on the fleet. Recent hybrid-diesel-electric Orion VII delivered to the fleet burn bio-diesel as well. - wikipedia |
A short google search confirmed the wikipedia info.
Streetcars still have a longer lifespan than any bus will ever have.
And they're not that slow, they're moving along busy downtown streets, how fast do they have to be? Shouldn't they be able to reach 70km/h? Isn't that fast enough?
Also for some unexplained reason I just like riding streetcars more.
Here's a lockpick. It might be handy if you, the master of unlocking, take it with you. |
|
Agent Skelly
Web Sheriff
Location: Oregon Territory
Gender: Male
Prenez De L'Avance Avec Chrysler!
| | | | | Re: TTC --- Provincial?
<Reply # 50 on 1/17/2008 4:22 AM >
| | | | I don't understand...you want to burn oil to save energy instead of using electricity?
BTW, the regnenerative braking you speak of...thats used on the CLRV
|
|
Stewie
Location: Hamilton, Ontario
Gender: Male
kill your idols
| | | Re: TTC --- Provincial?
<Reply # 51 on 1/17/2008 6:27 AM >
| | | | Posted by rz350
Hybrid busses the electricity comes from onboard generator. A hybrid uses the onboard engine to charge the electric motor. It saves fuel by, for example, using idle time to make electric power that is now used for tractive effort, instead just spinning a fan belt.
|
Close but not quite. The hybrid buses use re-generative braking to charge the batteries on top of the bus. This energy is then stored and transferred to an electric motor to aid in moving the bus, which later switches over to the traditional diesel engine when the batteries are depleted. The rider notices a smoother acceleration, especially from a stop. Very much like a subway train, if not smoother.
The TTC actually has a couple hundred hybrid buses now, and hundreds more on the way.
The CLRV's have no problem reaching a high top speed, after all they were designed for rapid transit initially. I'm gonna side with the streetcars on this debate as urban trends have proven them to be more friendly to dense city areas. Queen St. probably wouldn't be nearly as artsy and hip as it is if it weren't for the streetcar. A lot of Toronto probably wouldn't be anything like it is because of streetcars. It's a defining symbol of downtown Toronto.
in closing none of this has to do with the thread subject, but i love cock waving debates.
[last edit 1/17/2008 6:28 AM by Stewie - edited 1 times]
> The hierarchy of power dictates that the person with the most power does the least amount of work and retains the highest benefit. |
|
rz350
This member has been banned. See the banlist for more information.
Location: toronto
Gender: Male
The looniest, zaniest, spontaneous, sporadic Impulsive thinker, compulsive drinker, addict
| | Re: TTC --- Provincial?
<Reply # 52 on 1/17/2008 7:06 AM >
| | | | Skelly. power is power, watts are watts. The electric power has to come from somewhere...usually from fossil fuels too.
running busses on biofuel at least gets us away from that.
I suppose the tracked vs non tracked transit debate is somewhat of an endless one. There well always be two camps. But I am on the bus side my self.
Who says artsy and hip is better? Thats quite subjective. Also, busses can bring just as many people downtown. Maybe even go with an articulated bus.
ducky 999 |
|
kowalski
| | Re: TTC --- Provincial?
<Reply # 53 on 1/17/2008 7:11 AM >
| | | | Posted by rz350
running busses on biofuel at least gets us away from that.
|
How do you suppose they grow corn these days? It's not exactly "sow-and-pray" agriculture.
| Who says artsy and hip is better? Thats quite subjective. Also, busses can bring just as many people downtown. Maybe even go with an articulated bus. |
Try riding the Dufferin bus versus the Spadina car for a week and then tell me that buses are better than streetcars.
|
|
rz350
This member has been banned. See the banlist for more information.
Location: toronto
Gender: Male
The looniest, zaniest, spontaneous, sporadic Impulsive thinker, compulsive drinker, addict
| | Re: TTC --- Provincial?
<Reply # 54 on 1/17/2008 7:29 AM >
| | | | I perfer busses Kowlaski. I honestly do. I find they get me from A to B faster.
ducky 999 |
|
tomms
Location: toronto
Gender: Male
| | | Re: TTC --- Provincial?
<Reply # 55 on 1/17/2008 4:45 PM >
| | | | i can walk faster then the street car on queen
http://500px.com/tom |
|
rz350
This member has been banned. See the banlist for more information.
Location: toronto
Gender: Male
The looniest, zaniest, spontaneous, sporadic Impulsive thinker, compulsive drinker, addict
| | Re: TTC --- Provincial?
<Reply # 56 on 1/17/2008 10:46 PM >
| | | | Posted by tomms
i can walk faster then the street car on queen
|
bingo. My point exactly. I can however drive on queen much faster then I can walk. Thus I submit the streetcars are the problem.
ducky 999 |
|
Boffo
Moderator
Location: Smithers, BC
Gender: Male
HONK! HONK!
| | Re: TTC --- Provincial?
<Reply # 57 on 1/17/2008 10:49 PM >
| | | | A bus on queen wouldn't be going any faster. If you've ever ridden the Queen street car it makes a stop every two dozen feet. You made an example out of the worst example of transit in the city.
Here's a lockpick. It might be handy if you, the master of unlocking, take it with you. |
|
KONG
Sus scrofa domestica
Location: Kingston, Ontario
Gender: Male
| | Re: TTC --- Provincial?
<Reply # 58 on 1/17/2008 10:59 PM >
| | | | Posted by Boffo
A bus on queen wouldn't be going any faster. If you've ever ridden the Queen street car it makes a stop every two dozen feet. You made an example out of the worst example of transit in the city.
|
Yes. A moving sidewalk would be more effective than that thing.. At least between Bathurst and Jarvis.
|
|
rz350
This member has been banned. See the banlist for more information.
Location: toronto
Gender: Male
The looniest, zaniest, spontaneous, sporadic Impulsive thinker, compulsive drinker, addict
| | Re: TTC --- Provincial?
<Reply # 59 on 1/17/2008 11:31 PM >
| | | | Posted by Boffo
A bus on queen wouldn't be going any faster.
|
Well my car goes faster. So does my truck. The truck in particular is a similar vehicle in handling dynamics and performance to a bus. (its a 7 tonne 21 foot box straight truck with a 454 engine...not a pickup or regular van)
I figure if it moves much faster then the streetcar, so would a bus.
ducky 999 |
|
|
|
All content and images copyright © 2002-2024 UER.CA and respective creators. Graphical Design by Crossfire.
To contact webmaster, or click to email with problems or other questions about this site:
UER CONTACT
View Terms of Service |
View Privacy Policy |
Server colocation provided by Beanfield
This page was generated for you in 234 milliseconds. Since June 23, 2002, a total of 739696452 pages have been generated.
|
|
