 |
|
|
UER Store
|
|
order your copy of Access All Areas today!
|
|
|
 Hephaestus
Location: Barrie
Gender: Male
Life is what you make of it.
 |  | ROE, the Rules of Engagement
< on 11/19/2010 4:22 PM >
|  | | | First of all, I am not the end all and be all of UE. Second, I will gladly accept any and all critical criticisms as it will help all who visit this forum. Third, for the moment listen to what I have to say with an open mind and then come to a conclusion and comment as there really isn't a set in stone guideline to this hobby. Also check with your local laws and regulations etc., etc. Forth, well there is no forth... So let the information flow.
Have a cover story. Know it inside and out. Bring props like cameras, notebooks, books, assignment sheets and recording equipment. If you do encounter personnel monitoring the area, they will be more understanding if you have a good coverstory.
So when you do go out there are many opinions on what to wear. I have come to the conclusion for most incursions wear dark outdoor casual clothes. Move around in ways to not be seen. If you have been compromised do not run. Approach security or law enforcement personal and identify yourself and explain your coverstory. Now to explain this. If you dress like you are trying to hide this in itself maybe an expression of guilt. Dressing as if you are out for a day hike, picture taking event you then are dressed appropriate and your encounters with others will not be treated as suspicious. Of course for the most of it "we" will be try to move around explore, have fun and respect the area in a way that will not attract too much attention. If you do attract attention and do try to run, you might make it and you might not. It maybe better not to get caught "evading capture" as there is a fine for that as well. If you identify yourself to the LE officer, how about this, if you do not identify yourself to the LE officer, you waive the right for you and your pack contents to be searched. So, if you do come across this incident, stop. Don't run, approach casually and greet them. Identify yourself and explain your reason for being here.
If you saw my other post about equipment I added smokes and matches. Security and LE personnel are not the ony people you may want to avoid. If you do bump into "marginalized" people of society, apologies on your intrusion, ask permission to continue and if need be offer them your "gift" offering to iron things out.
The other type of people you may encounter are other UER's. I am not going to delve into that as well as the group called "scrappers".
So with that in mind, let's hear your comments!
Life is measured not by how many breaths you take but by the moments that take your breath away... |
|
Yehoshua
   
Location: Ontario
Gender: Male
| | Re: ROE, the Rules of Engagement
<Reply # 1 on 11/19/2010 4:34 PM >
| | | | Generally sound rules, I actually carry a dead point-and-shoot in my camera bag as well as my real camera since I happen to believe it's even more sympathetic if you busted a guy carrying *multiple* cameras who's "clearly" just a photography nut with an error of judgment about jumping over that fence or entering that window for the "perfect" shot.
Security, Hobos and Scrappers really aren't the terrible foes some people like to pretend they are; I think it's just the inner-ninja in us all that makes people exaggerate in their minds how terrible it would be to run across a scrapper or hobo. ("that's why I carry a .22 and nunchucks!") Hobos are more than happy for a cigarette and you to show them some respect (ASK if you they'd mind if you continue, treat it like their house, don't play oneupmanship), security are about half failed cop-wannabes (try to avoid) and the other half are just working it because it pays off student loans faster than McDonald's and they don't really care...whether they arrest you or warn you, they only came out to investigate the noise because their job is so fecking boring. Amuse them with tales, be lighthearted and again show some (feigned, if necessary) respect and it'll be fine. And scrappers are basically the modern version of the peasants picking up coal alongside the railroad or winnowing already-harvested fields, they're poor and subsist hand-to-mouth stealing copper wire to buy their kid a Christmas gift this year. I have no idea why people confuse "stumbling upon scrappers" with "stumbling upon a Meth lab"...one is harmless, the other...well, even my lax laissez-faire attitude would tell you to clear the fuck out in a hurry ;)
Our Citizen.
Our Justice.
Bring Omar Khadr back to Canada. |
|
CatalogOfCulture
  
Location: All over the northeast
Gender: Male
| |  | Re: ROE, the Rules of Engagement
<Reply # 2 on 11/19/2010 5:17 PM >
| | | | Cops are trained to pick up on lies & inconsistencies so in a lot of cases the truth (or mostly truth) is probably your best bet.
If it rusts I will find it |
|
vov35
Location: Maryland
Gender: Male
| | Re: ROE, the Rules of Engagement
<Reply # 3 on 11/19/2010 5:32 PM >
| | | | **points irritatedly to the first page of the rookie forum**
ALL of this is covered in much greater detail.
"Only sheep need a shepherd." -- Voltaire |
|
dsankt
Location: live and in the fresh
| |  | | Re: ROE, the Rules of Engagement
<Reply # 4 on 11/19/2010 5:54 PM >
| | | | Don't disappoint me UER, popcorn is on hand.
Also, you'd do well to establish some credibility here before beginning a discussion on the Rules of Engagement as you call them. Threads by new members on how urban exploration should be done are dime a dozen.
sleepycity.net: watch out for the third rail baby, that shit is high voltage. urbex and urban exploration photography |
|
Steed
  
Location: Edmonton/Seoul
Gender: Male
Your Friendly Neighbourhood Race Traitor
| | | Re: ROE, the Rules of Engagement
<Reply # 5 on 11/19/2010 6:12 PM >
| | | | Posted by Hephaestus
First of all, I am not the end all and be all of UE.
|
No shit?
|
|
Rinzler
 
Location: New Jersey
Nomad
| | | Re: ROE, the Rules of Engagement
<Reply # 6 on 11/19/2010 6:20 PM >
| | | | Posted by dsankt
Don't disappoint me UER, popcorn is on hand.
Also, you'd do well to establish some credibility here before beginning a discussion on the Rules of Engagement as you call them. Threads by new members on how urban exploration should be done are dime a dozen.
|
Agreed. Doing posts like these before any other is a good way to get trolled on.
|
|
rostit
Location: South Eastern PA
Gender: Male
Imma herpin ma derp like YEAHH!!
| | Re: ROE, the Rules of Engagement
<Reply # 7 on 11/19/2010 7:16 PM >
| | | | What? All scrappers and Hobos smoke? That's insulting. You would sooner get beaten to a pulp pulling that sh*t instead of offering to slob his knob.
You should add condoms to your UE pack list.
|
|
LiveStrong2009
Location: Milwaukee, WI
Gender: Male
| | Re: ROE, the Rules of Engagement
<Reply # 8 on 12/22/2010 2:13 AM >
| | | | Posted by rostit
You should add condoms to your UE pack list.
|
This is a good safety precaution to take. Respirator, gloves, condoms...
You never know when you might stumble upon a porn shoot you want to get involved in.
Backtrail Photography
http://facebook.com/BacktrailPhotography |
|
Hephaestus
Location: Barrie
Gender: Male
Life is what you make of it.
| | Re: ROE, the Rules of Engagement
<Reply # 9 on 12/23/2010 2:03 AM >
| | | | Well thank to all who replied. This past weekend I had my first outing with the forum and learnt a lot, but more on that later...
To give a reply/defend my comments... Smokes and carried food/snacks are two fold, for yourself and for whom you may encounter. It is always better to have it and not need it than to need it and not have it. Think of it of having some "goodwill" in your pack. Remember, what comes around, goes around.
I am not telling you to make up lies with your "cover story". A cover story is just a "script" that you need to understand so that when you do encounter an authority figure you don't blurt out your whole life story and look and sound like you are guiltier that your are. Sure, like Catalog of Culture says; "Cops are trained to pick up on lies & inconsistencies so in a lot of cases the truth (or mostly truth) is probably your best bet". This is why you should be prepared to say what you have to when you need to. They don't need to know that your step-father is in rehab or your dope smoking sister is visiting you this weekend and that is why you snuck out to do urban exing.
To vov35, I know that this is already mentioned in the "rookie" forum but I do not consider myself a "rookie" in many aspects of this activity. I will critique my first event for you guys so that all can learn from it.
To dsankt, although I have not established any creditability in the UE field, I am familiar with may different ROE's whether it be LE or military in the theater of operation or domestic ops. So what credentials are you looking for? Besides time in the "field", you really can not validate if you were good or just plain lucky. I just use what I know in those fields and apply it to these environments. If my observations are wrong or need to be tweaked, your comments are greatly appreciated.
After Action Review...
This past adventure I did not follow all my ROE's. For one, I did not have a "cover story". I actually didn't need one nor will I ever, more of this for some other time... I also did not bring a camera, actually forgot to bring my "work" camera. Maybe next time... I did pack for a exploring but my pack was not complete. Did get a new pack and right now in the process of getting it ready. I had food, no smokes though. Any idea what brands are popular? More or less I was sloppy. I chalk it up to being "new" to this past time and I played the part of observer rather than OIC of the event. We arrived at the staging area and there was no head count. It was a large crowd, over 15 if I remember correctly. I can understand if a "roll call" wasn't taken, but we should have known how many people we brought in. At this point of time when we left the staging area, an agreed upon time limit should have been made mentioned just in case we did lose some people and if there are people that are leaving early or wanting to stay later, they should be identified. As there was snow on the ground there was no track discipline, members should follow in the footsteps of the people in front as best as possible without the effort looking too obvious. In other weather dominated situations this can be important but again it depends on the enviroment. A quick "brief" was given but I would have prefered a more in depth one. I am not faulting the hosts of this event as this is just a friendly after action review, I hope that we all can learn from this. The exploration went fine, I really enjoyed it. I did hang around on of the "main bodies" but did want to see more as other groups did splinter off. I did not want to force anyone to pair up with me but in hindsight, that is a very valid point. The "buddy" system should always be used as two sets of eyes are better than one. Lastly, once it was over and we were back to the staging area and when we were leaving no "head count" was done to ensure that everyone had returned safely...
Good points - At times I thought the group that was there was a infantry section out on a patrol. We did have good noise discipline going to the point of entry, some comms were passed down the line and hand signals and body orientation was followed down the line as well. We moved accordingly through different types of terrain. The last point floored me! When the lead person stopped to look/listen, he went down onto one knee and the rest followed.
In conclusion it was a good time had by all. Through this event I was able to observe three distinct groups of people; the photographers, explorers and the do this until it bores me and I am off to the next thing that excites me. The latter have no respect for the enviroment they are in as they are reckless and do not follow the "creed" of Urban Exploring and ultimately those are the ones that will give "us" a bad reputation. Will I do it again? Yes I will. As for the size of participants involved, I will have to do more of these to see if I like large or smaller groups.
Thanks for all the valued comments.
Life is measured not by how many breaths you take but by the moments that take your breath away... |
|
rob.i.am
Gender: Male
Carpe noctum
| | | Re: ROE, the Rules of Engagement
<Reply # 10 on 12/23/2010 2:28 AM >
|  | | | Posted by Hephaestus
I actually didn't need one nor will I ever, more of this for some other time...
|
I lol'd.
http://www.flickr.com/photos/rob666/ |
|
Loki
Location: Melbourne, Australia
Gender: Male
| | Re: ROE, the Rules of Engagement
<Reply # 11 on 12/23/2010 2:37 AM >
| | | | Wow...
It's just exploring, not a military operation. And it doesn't sound like you were doing anything especially risky, be chill dude.
Wank | Wank | Wank | Wank | Wank | Wank |
|
Hephaestus
Location: Barrie
Gender: Male
Life is what you make of it.
| | Re: ROE, the Rules of Engagement
<Reply # 12 on 12/23/2010 4:01 AM >
| | | | Posted by ExplorerLoki
Wow...
It's just exploring, not a military operation. And it doesn't sound like you were doing anything especially risky, be chill dude.
|
Yeah, it may not be a military operation but you definitely want to make sure that everyone that went will go home at the end of the day. At the same time, one has a tendency to get braver and bolder with every outing, if proper "protocols" are not established and followed your pastime maybe endangered. I did not even begin to talk about risk. That can be a whole topic in itself. We checked out an abandoned power generation site and there were many risks at this site. Yes I know that we were not "Indiana Jones" in any of his movies but the last thing you want to do is be reckless. I have been told that there was a UE death at this site even.
Life is measured not by how many breaths you take but by the moments that take your breath away... |
|
hydrotherapy
Clever Girl
Location: Circle of Least Confusion
RPS is inside all of us
| | | Re: ROE, the Rules of Engagement
<Reply # 13 on 12/23/2010 4:13 AM >
| | | | Smoking in abandonments is filthy, disgusting, adds to the heightened risk of mesothelioma, clouds shots, and is generally frowned upon in general urbex circles, regardless of whether or not it may get you out of possible rape situations with the destitute.
I suggest you rethink this scenario.
Get down, girl, go 'head, get down. |
|
Loki
Location: Melbourne, Australia
Gender: Male
| | Re: ROE, the Rules of Engagement
<Reply # 14 on 12/23/2010 5:23 AM >
| | | | Posted by Hephaestus
Yeah, it may not be a military operation but you definitely want to make sure that everyone that went will go home at the end of the day. At the same time, one has a tendency to get braver and bolder with every outing, if proper "protocols" are not established and followed your pastime maybe endangered. I did not even begin to talk about risk. That can be a whole topic in itself. We checked out an abandoned power generation site and there were many risks at this site. Yes I know that we were not "Indiana Jones" in any of his movies but the last thing you want to do is be reckless. I have been told that there was a UE death at this site even.
|
I think the point that people are trying to make in this and the other thread you posted is, you've come onto a forum and the very first thing you post is detailed instructions on how to do something many of them have been doing for years. You haven't offered any new information, you've just portrayed yourself as a know it all (although I don't think that's how you intended it).
Wank | Wank | Wank | Wank | Wank | Wank |
|
Hephaestus
Location: Barrie
Gender: Male
Life is what you make of it.
| | Re: ROE, the Rules of Engagement
<Reply # 15 on 12/23/2010 5:58 AM >
| | | | Posted by ExplorerLoki
I think the point that people are trying to make in this and the other thread you posted is, you've come onto a forum and the very first thing you post is detailed instructions on how to do something many of them have been doing for years. You haven't offered any new information, you've just portrayed yourself as a know it all (although I don't think that's how you intended it).
|
You are correct. As I did mention at the very beginning of this and any other threads is that I am not the end all and be all and I will gladly accept any and all critical comments. I do appreciate any and all constructive criticisms and I'd hate to think I was coming off with attitude as a know it all. As I have explained on my first event I did take in a lot of value from the people that were there and the ones who were hosting the event. At no point of time did I ever think to hijack their event and tell them what to do.
Mind you, if what I think you are saying is correct that I was able to surmise the the how to in a very short time then I have gotten a very good grasp on the concept of this hobby. This was originally a discussion point in my shop with another co-worker and together we were able to devise most of the method of operation within an afternoon. Again, in no way am I claiming any sort of brilliance to this hobby, just a methodical approach through collaborative discussions. I'd like to think that my postings have had no attitude and have had good merit in discussions and any replies have been of value and not harshly critical of anyones views or opinions.
Just out of curiosity as I hi-jack my own thread, what are the demographics of this community? I have not seen a poll on this subject.
Life is measured not by how many breaths you take but by the moments that take your breath away... |
|
Loki
Location: Melbourne, Australia
Gender: Male
| | Re: ROE, the Rules of Engagement
<Reply # 16 on 12/23/2010 6:45 AM >
| | | | Posted by Hephaestus
Just out of curiosity as I hi-jack my own thread, what are the demographics of this community? I have not seen a poll on this subject.
|
VERY broadly
18-30
75% Male
Low to middle incomes
Incredibly attractive to the opposite sex
Wank | Wank | Wank | Wank | Wank | Wank |
|
Hephaestus
Location: Barrie
Gender: Male
Life is what you make of it.
| | Re: ROE, the Rules of Engagement
<Reply # 17 on 12/23/2010 5:24 PM >
| | | | Posted by hydrotherapy
Smoking in abandonments is filthy, disgusting, adds to the heightened risk of mesothelioma, clouds shots, and is generally frowned upon in general urbex circles, regardless of whether or not it may get you out of possible rape situations with the destitute.
I suggest you rethink this scenario.
|
Please forgive the cut and paste from another thread I replied to. I thought I would better explain myself to hydrotherapy. I see that smokes/matches are a sensitive issue on this forum as well. I for one do not smoke nor encourage it. But the two do have other uses I do not want to go too deep into this but tobacco can be used as an offering. For those spiritally inclined, I like to keep an open mind... http://www.theeart...acco-offering.html
If you are more inclined to explore the outdoors like mining, farming communities, settlements and the great outdoors and you wish to give thanks, then a tobacco offering is an accepted means of this.
I do understand the fact that a good Urban Explorer will leave little to no trace of his/her presence behind. for those who do choose to smoke I hope that you keep your butts and dispose of them later in the proper fashion.
Your thoughts hydrotherapy? Do I still need to rethink my scenario. Your input is greatly appreciated.
Life is measured not by how many breaths you take but by the moments that take your breath away... |
|
hydrotherapy
Clever Girl
Location: Circle of Least Confusion
RPS is inside all of us
| | | Re: ROE, the Rules of Engagement
<Reply # 18 on 12/23/2010 6:10 PM >
| | | | Posted by Hephaestus
http://www.theeart...acco-offering.html
If you are more inclined to explore the outdoors like mining, farming communities, settlements and the great outdoors and you wish to give thanks, then a tobacco offering is an accepted means of this.
|
I'm going to excuse myself from this thread before I start convulsing.
Get down, girl, go 'head, get down. |
|
TheWolfman269
Location: Nashville, Tennessee
Gender: Male
If it looks like a wolf, acts like a wolf, and howls like a wolf, it's probably an asshole.
| | | Re: ROE, the Rules of Engagement
<Reply # 19 on 12/23/2010 9:09 PM >
| | | | Since you said any and all comments are appreciated, let me see if I can further help. These are just a few things from your run down...
After Action Review...
-Mistake number one. Conducting your own AAR and posting it here.
This past adventure I did not follow all my ROE's. For one, I did not have a "cover story". I actually didn't need one nor will I ever, more of this for some other time...
-Come on. Who else caught it? =)
I also did not bring a camera, actually forgot to bring my "work" camera. Maybe next time... I did pack for a exploring but my pack was not complete. Did get a new pack and right now in the process of getting it ready. I had food, no smokes though. Any idea what brands are popular? More or less I was sloppy. I chalk it up to being "new" to this past time and I played the part of observer rather than OIC of the event.
-Mistake number 2. OIC. While you and I know that means "Officer In Charge", most people do not.
We arrived at the staging area
-Mistake number 3. Staging area.
and there was no head count.
-And 4. This is not kindergarten.
It was a large crowd, over 15 if I remember correctly. I can understand if a "roll call" wasn't taken, but we should have known how many people we brought in.
-5. You can't expect civilians to act like military.
At this point of time when we left the staging area,
-Staging area again.
an agreed upon time limit should have been made mentioned just in case we did lose some people and if there are people that are leaving early or wanting to stay later, they should be identified.
-Once again, this is not a military operation. this is supposed to be a fun hobby and your trying to overcomplicate matters. Don't get me wrong. I see your point. I do. But your trying to be too organized about it. Any of this could have been discovered through casual conversation without the rigidity of "time limits" and "roll calls".
As there was snow on the ground there was no track discipline, members should follow in the footsteps of the people in front as best as possible without the effort looking too obvious. In other weather dominated situations this can be important but again it depends on the enviroment.
-Dude. Tell me you don't see anything wrong with saying this in regards to civilians? I mean really? How often do we even do this in the military? this isn't Special Forces training and we're not going in to extract a POW or something.
A quick "brief" was given but I would have prefered a more in depth one.
-you know, I wondered alot about asking you this or not, but what would you have liked them to say? I'm being serious here.
I am not faulting the hosts of this event as this is just a friendly after action review, I hope that we all can learn from this.
-Most importantly, I'm hoping YOU can learn from THIS.
The exploration went fine, I really enjoyed it. I did hang around on of the "main bodies" but did want to see more as other groups did splinter off. I did not want to force anyone to pair up with me but in hindsight, that is a very valid point. The "buddy" system should always be used as two sets of eyes are better than one.
-I actually agree with you on this one. Working in buddy teams is a good way to work as a group. There ARE dangers out there and it is always best to have someone to beat feet out to everyone else if something does happen. But while I would bring this up to a group I was with and explain my side of things, if they decided that's gay and they don't want to, what can I really do about it. If nothing else though, again, be casual about it and just ask, "Hey. I wanna go check this out. Can I get someone to go with me in case something happens?"
Lastly, once it was over and we were back to the staging area and when we were leaving no "head count" was done to ensure that everyone had returned safely...
-Again, not a military op. I get your point. I really really do. But you can't really expect civilians to do these things. If nothing else, they just don't think the way we do. You might suggest it to groups you work with in the future, but don't be surprised if they don't treat it very seriously.
Good points - At times I thought the group that was there was a infantry section out on a patrol. We did have good noise discipline going to the point of entry, some comms were passed down the line and hand signals and body orientation was followed down the line as well. We moved accordingly through different types of terrain. The last point floored me! When the lead person stopped to look/listen, he went down onto one knee and the rest followed.
-While this is great, the group was more than likely just "playing Army". I doubt the point man actually knew what he was looking for. While I love that everyone has seen a war movie or played Call of Duty a time or two, most times alot of that stuff just doesn't transfer over to the real world. And also, I wouldn't expect this kind of thing often unless you put a group together that you normally go exploring with and it is something that is discussed and decided upon.
In conclusion it was a good time had by all. Through this event I was able to observe three distinct groups of people; the photographers, explorers and the do this until it bores me and I am off to the next thing that excites me. The latter have no respect for the enviroment they are in as they are reckless and do not follow the "creed" of Urban Exploring and ultimately those are the ones that will give "us" a bad reputation. Will I do it again? Yes I will. As for the size of participants involved, I will have to do more of these to see if I like large or smaller groups.
Thanks for all the valued comments.
[/quote]
Your welcome. The main point that I want to get across to you is this. Just work on your wording. Your acting like a brand new LT straight out of your officers course. Staging area - location. OIC - Folks who put this group together. Observer - Dude with a flashlight. Just remember back to your civilian days and try to remember the vocabulary that went along with it. and then also, you have to remember that this is folks out having a good time. Relax. Don't be so structured. These aren't soldiers and you can't treat them like such and expect them to do all the same things you do.
"I've got military training, a giant crowbar, and I've already been shot. What can really stop me?" - Myself |
|
|
|
All content and images copyright © 2002-2024 UER.CA and respective creators. Graphical Design by Crossfire.
To contact webmaster, or click to email with problems or other questions about this site:
UER CONTACT
View Terms of Service |
View Privacy Policy |
Server colocation provided by Beanfield
This page was generated for you in 138 milliseconds. Since June 23, 2002, a total of 740577792 pages have been generated.
|
|
