for and against, whether or not it could've saved your life or ended it is immaterial. What matters is that you have the fucking right to whether or not you want to wear it.

that's the issue.

Posted by Samurai for and against, whether or not it could've saved your life or ended it is immaterial. What matters is that you have the fucking right to whether or not you want to wear it. that's the issue.

Passengers should be required because in an accident in progress then can impact with the driver and cause complete lose of control.
Other than that, in a vehicle with no passengers, no belt laws should be applicable.

I'd like to repeat what the research from the university study revealed, which I quoted earlier, but will paraphrase here:

A study of countries with and without seatbelt laws revealed that the countries without seatbelt laws didn't fare any better than those with seatbelt laws.

The ineffectiveness of seatbelt laws in decreasing fatality rates is attributed to the fact that people in seatbelt law areas are more likely to drive more dangerously because of the added security of the seatbelt.

phew...

Posted by tunnelbug I'd like to repeat what the research from the university study revealed, which I quoted earlier, but will paraphrase here: A study of countries with and without seatbelt laws revealed that the countries without seatbelt laws didn't fare any better than those with seatbelt laws. The ineffectiveness of seatbelt laws in decreasing fatality rates is attributed to the fact that people in seatbelt law areas are more likely to drive more dangerously because of the added security of the seatbelt. phew...

I wasn't aware of that.
That's kind of a weird factoid.

How many states/provinces are left that don't require seatbelts? I know New Hampshire still doesn't require people over 16 to wear them, but what do you expect from a state that has "Live Free Or Die" on the license plates?

What I meant to say was countries without seatbelt laws. There are a number of European countries that still don't have them.

Posted by tunnelbug I'd like to repeat what the research from the university study revealed, which I quoted earlier, but will paraphrase here: A study of countries with and without seatbelt laws revealed that the countries without seatbelt laws didn't fare any better than those with seatbelt laws. The ineffectiveness of seatbelt laws in decreasing fatality rates is attributed to the fact that people in seatbelt law areas are more likely to drive more dangerously because of the added security of the seatbelt. phew...

The main problem is the fact that almost all cars (almost all race cars do!) don't have a integral roll cage, with hard mount points for the belts, and they don't use a four point mounting system that's needed to properly distribute the G loading in a rapid deceleration. Muscles and tendons tear, and bones break as a result.

Moderate to high speed side and rear impacts are commonly fatal because of wearing belts and the body collapsing on the occupants; they hold you in place as your crushed.
The mount points shift due to a inadequately rigid roll cage/unibody; the result many times is serious injury or death.
Safety belts are good for front impacts alone, and many times an air bag will do a better job and cause little or no injury than belts in a front end impact.
I hate 3 point safety belt systems, and this is why!

Thanks for that extra info. What I meant to say originally was that countries WITH seatbelt laws didn't fare better than those without.

Dyslexic I am.

If seatbelt is statistically shown to reduce the magnitude of injuries or fatality, I'd think the insurance industry would have lobbyists to keep the law in place as they're the ones who'll have to pay the medical/death claims.

Then, there will always be "but i know someone..." examples of accidents where it would have been worse had they wore it.

Posted by Deuterium If seatbelt is statistically shown to reduce the magnitude of injuries or fatality, I'd think the insurance industry would have lobbyists to keep the law in place as they're the ones who'll have to pay the medical/death claims. Then, there will always be "but i know someone..." examples of accidents where it would have been worse had they wore it.

Here's the thing, D, like anything else, you can skew your data however you like by changing the variables and the data entered. Yeah, seatbelts may prevent death, but cause more permanent injuries. Blackhawk brought up a really good point back a post a two about race harnesses and how they work versus the one in your mom's Camry. As an aspiring drag racer, I do wear my seatbelt on the track, but feel that if I lose control of my SS at over 110mph, it will do nothing to save me. A four or five point harness mounted to a roll cage is the best restraint out there, especially used in concert with a racing seat. During a severe high speed impact, you don't move at all. Only your head and hands are free to bounce around and now, with the ASSCAR pushed HANS-device, even that doesn't happen much. For those of you who don't drag race, most tracks require cars that are sub-13 second runners to have a cage, at least 4-point harness and the airbags removed. That's right, airbags removed.
Why do you think that is? (looking at out the class)

Posted by tunnelbug Thanks for that extra info. What I meant to say originally was that countries WITH seatbelt laws didn't fare better than those without. Dyslexic I am.

It all evens out, because that's how I read it. Dyslexia isn't near as crippling as stupidly. When you read for content, these little inversions are somewhat invisible, especially if your dyslexic!

Besides, you don't have to wear a seat belt. And you don't have to go the speed limit. It's just tickets and fines, so it all really comes down to how much personal freedom you can afford, and that's the American Way.

Posted by MutantMandias Besides, you don't have to wear a seat belt. And you don't have to go the speed limit. It's just tickets and fines, so it all really comes down to how much personal freedom you can afford, and that's the American Way.

OUTSTANDING, Mandias! Isn't that the truth!

Posted by Samurai Here's the thing, D, like anything else, you can skew your data however you like by changing the variables and the data entered. Yeah, seatbelts may prevent death, but cause more permanent injuries.

I think what the insurance industry is interested in is per incident claim expense. What costs the insurance company more? Death or injury?

Posted by Deuterium I think what the insurance industry is interested in is per incident claim expense. What costs the insurance company more? Death or injury?

that's what I was getting at... insurance corporations dictating lawmaking. It blows.
I have to live my life according to a corporate lobbyist mandate... see where I am going?

Sam, I know you hate my dad, but ask him sometime about the car accident he had where if he'd BEEN WEARING his seatbelt, he'd have been killed. Instead, he flew through the windshield and lost a tooth.

Shael

If we are going to have seatbelt laws then, ban airbags and make 4/5/6 point harnesses and racing buckets the norm.

Posted by Sinister Crayon If we are going to have seatbelt laws then, ban airbags and make 4/5/6 point harnesses and racing buckets the norm.

can you imagine the average idiot trying to figure out how a harness works?

Posted by Sinister Crayon If we are going to have seatbelt laws then, ban airbags and make 4/5/6 point harnesses and racing buckets the norm.

Sweet! I love that idea!

Posted by Samurai can you imagine the average idiot trying to figure out how a harness works?

Try imagining the average idiot trying to figure out how to use their signals!
Rather pissed off tonight, Shutterbug and I were nearly sideswiped by an asshole who started to change lanes without looking or signaling.

25 bucks here and in new hampshire if your over 18 ya dont need one