It's like argument porn.

Well done!

Very good. Might as well delete this forum now.....

Lot of effort when the end result is still the same. You can't prove He doesn't exist, I cannot prove He does.

Which means we win. Sorry dude. Claims require evidence. Extraordinary claims require extraordinary evidence. Guess what claiming you know of the true origins of the universe and why everything works counts as...

Not trying to bust your chops dude, but when people use their faith as justification for writing laws that screw up my freedoms then it comes down to put up or shut up. Religions can line up and be cranky that I enjoy porn, promiscuity, hard liquor, rock music RPGs, and violence till the hell they think I'm headed to freezes over. Without real peer reviewed evidence (and there is none that says any of these things are all that bad when enjoyed responsibly) screaming "it makes god angry" only makes me wonder why anyone takes them seriously.

Oh, I'm just as cranky when people use their bullshit, unscientific, politically correct, biased, non-religious idealogical crap as justification for the same freedom stealing laws. I'm a very equal opportunity sorta guy. I like my freedoms because they are mine.

Posted by underdark Which means we win. Sorry dude. Claims require evidence. Extraordinary claims require extraordinary evidence. Guess what claiming you know of the true origins of the universe and why everything works counts as... Not trying to bust your chops dude, but when people use their faith as justification for writing laws that screw up my freedoms then it comes down to put up or shut up. Religions can line up and be cranky that I enjoy porn, promiscuity, hard liquor, rock music RPGs, and violence till the hell they think I'm headed to freezes over. Without real peer reviewed evidence (and there is none that says any of these things are all that bad when enjoyed responsibly) screaming "it makes god angry" only makes me wonder why anyone takes them seriously. Oh, I'm just as cranky when people use their bullshit, unscientific, politically correct, biased, non-religious idealogical crap as justification for the same freedom stealing laws. I'm a very equal opportunity sorta guy. I like my freedoms because they are mine.

I don't see it as a contest with winners and losers. I look to my God as spiritual guidance and comfort. Not as a control mechanism for the masses. Don't blame the God I cannot prove exist for the actions of control freaks who don't want you to wack off.

Posted by jeepdave I don't see it as a contest with winners and losers. I look to my God as spiritual guidance and comfort. Not as a control mechanism for the masses. Don't blame the God I cannot prove exist for the actions of control freaks who don't want you to wack off.

You've crystallized the essence of my thoughts eloquently.

Faith is the excuse that intellectually lazy people give each other for not asking "why?" anymore.

Posted by tekriter Faith is the excuse that intellectually lazy people give each other for not asking "why?" anymore.

Odd, Didn't know Einstein was intellectually lazy? I ask why all the time, doesn't mean I cannot have faith in something greater than me and the things I question.

I don't think that he was.

The word god is for me nothing more than the expression and product of human weaknesses, the Bible a collection of honourable, but still primitive legends which are nevertheless pretty childish. No interpretation no matter how subtle can (for me) change this.
-- Albert Einstein

I cannot imagine a God who rewards and punishes the objects of his creation, whose purposes are modeled after our own -- a God, in short, who is but a reflection of human frailty. Neither can I believe that the individual survives the death of his body, although feeble souls harbor such thoughts through fear or ridiculous egotisms.
-- Albert Einstein

I do not believe in immortality of the individual, and I consider ethics to be an exclusively human concern with no superhuman authority behind it.
-- Albert Einstein


It seems to me that the idea of a personal God is an anthropological concept which I cannot take seriously. I also cannot imagine some will or goal outside the human sphere.... Science has been charged with undermining morality, but the charge is unjust. A man's ethical behavior should be based effectually on sympathy, education, and social ties and needs; no religious basis is necessary. Man would indeed be in a poor way if he had to be restrained by fear of punishment and hope of reward after death.
-- Albert Einstein

Scientific research is based on the idea that everything that takes place is determined by laws of nature, and therefore this holds for the action of people. For this reason, a research scientist will hardly be inclined to believe that events could be influenced by a prayer, i.e. by a wish addressed to a Supernatural Being.
-- Albert Einstein

I am convinced that some political and social activities and practices of the Catholic organizations are detrimental and even dangerous for the community as a whole, here and everywhere. I mention here only the fight against birth control at a time when overpopulation in various countries has become a serious threat to the health of people and a grave obstacle to any attempt to organize peace on this planet.
-- Albert Einstein

You clearly do NOT ask why ALL the time. Maybe just enough to give yourself a pat on the back and keep hoping that your unjustified beliefs are not just wishful thinking.

click to view

Ole Albert did not believe in a personal God. But he did believe in a creator. So I don't ask enough questions just because I still have faith? That is your response?

yup.

see o.p.

Posted by tekriter yup. see o.p.

Weak. Very weak.

"In matters of religion, Einstein thought more deeply than many others and wa repeatedly misunderstood. On the occasion of Einstein's first visit to America, Cardinal o'connell or Boston warned that the relativity theory 'cloaked the ghastly apparition of atheism.' This alarmed a New York rabbi who cabled Einstein: 'Do you believe in God?' Einstein cabled back: 'I believe in Spinoza's God, who revealed himself in the harmony of all being, not in the God who concerns himself with the fate and actions of men.' -- a more subtle religious view embraced by many theologians today. Einstein's religious beliefs were very genuine. In the 1920s and 1930s he expressed grave doubts about a basic precept of quantum mechanics: that at the most fundamental level of matter, particles behave in an unpredictable way, as expressed by the Heisenberg uncertainty principle. Einstein said 'God does not play dice with the cosmos.' And on another occasion he asserted, 'God is subtle, but not malicious.' In fact, Einstein was so fond of such aphorisms that the Danish physicist Niels Bohr turned to him on one occasion and with some exasperation said, 'Stop telling God what to do.' But there were many physicists who felt that if anyone knew God's intentions, it was Einstein."

From Broca's Brain, by Carl Sagan, p.35 (Ballantine edition)

I suppose you need to have everything spelled out.

Faith is weak because it is the only way to maintain unreasonable beliefs in the face of either evidence to the contrary, or a complete lack of evidence.

Take belief in god. There is no evidence to support the existence of any god. Yet there is always some cultist at my door espousing the benefits of believing that for which there is just no good reason to believe.

Don't you ever just kinda wonder why?

Why, if god is omnipotent, did he fuck the universe up so bad. (I mean he created it for us, but the universe is far more efficient at creating black holes than habitable planets, there are more ants by weight than people, most of the planet is too cold or underwater for people to survive)

Why this god guy doesn't just say what he means instead of getting fools to cobble a bible together with all kinds of glaring errors and contradictions?

Why a god wouldn't just simply end the debate on his existence by going on Larry King?

Why in religion is it okay to make up an explanation when you simply don't know, but the police, my bank and my science teacher all want some sort of evidence? (here is a clue, it is called special pleading and it is a logical fallacy)

Why did he make guys like Ted Haggard his spokesmen?

How about "creationism". There are heaps of evidence to support evolution, such as dinosaurs and the entire field of biology. And no evidence whatsoever of a creator or a design. Yet there are millions of morons that still want stickers for text books, based on nothing more than the wishful thinking called faith.

In any other field of human endeavour, continuing to believe unreasonable ideas in the face on overwhelming evidence to the contrary is a mental defect.

Calling it religion or faith allows you to get away without having to provide evidence for crazy ideas, but it does not make it okay, or true.

Yeah, I said crazy. Like saying some words over crackers and making it into the flesh of a two thousand year old jew is crazy. They symbol of a "peaceful" religion is a dude being tortured on a stick is crazy. Thinking that humans and dinosaurs walked the earth together is crazy. Thinking that there is a supreme being that has time to worry about what I do in my bedroom is crazy. Thinking that abstinence only education will do any good at all is crazy. believing that dead people can come back to life and fly is crazy.

exorcism = crazy

surviving your own death = crazy

jihad = crazy

crusades = crazy

george bush = crazy

Sorry hoss, guess ya just have to have faith to understand God. But to assume that just because someone has faith, they must be lacking is sad, really sad. I actually feel bad for you, to have such a hatred for something you do not believe exist, hell, that's crazy.

JD, Tek has his moments. And I will admit that every single time I hear someone trying to use their god to push through a law that screws with my freedom, or see another church with 501c3 status dumping $250,000,000.00 on building another megachurch that will not pay property taxes, I get every bit as pissed off as Tek.

Have all the faith you want, but don't try and use it to fuck with my freedom or get outta paying your dues along with the rest of us.

Posted by underdark JD, Tek has his moments. And I will admit that every single time I hear someone trying to use their god to push through a law that screws with my freedom, or see another church with 501c3 status dumping $250,000,000.00 on building another megachurch that will not pay property taxes, I get every bit as pissed off as Tek. Have all the faith you want, but don't try and use it to fuck with my freedom or get outta paying your dues along with the rest of us.

See, its not God that's the problem. Its a lot of his fan club.

Posted by jeepdave Sorry hoss, guess ya just have to have faith to understand God. But to assume that just because someone has faith, they must be lacking is sad, really sad. I actually feel bad for you, to have such a hatred for something you do not believe exist, hell, that's crazy.

I think you misunderstand him. I don't think he hates god(s), since he believes that none exist. You can't hate something that doesn't exist. His contempt is reserved for the followers and believers. And your first sentence is a logical fallacy.

Posted by underdark Have all the faith you want, but don't try and use it to fuck with my freedom or get outta paying your dues along with the rest of us.

You wouldnt have your precious freedom if it werent for God. The pilgrims (christians) came here because of religious persecution in Europe. And now you guys are startin the same shit again with the christians.