I am done even trying to talk to you tek. People like you are the reason intelligent discourse is dying. Everyone else seems to be interested in discussing ideas and beliefs no matter how different they are from their own beliefs. I will from here on ignore everything you say because you contribute nothing but ignorance and hatred for anyone who doesn't believe what you believe.

That's got to be some sort of record.

You can't win, so you'll take your ball and go home.

Your baseless ignorance does not constitute an intelligent discourse.

I'm not the one who is making personal attacks, therefore your assertion that I am espousing hatred is particularly ironic.

More so when you consider that religious belief has been the single most divisive force in human history, spawning hatred and atrocities that are unmatched and leaving behind legions of bodies.

I continue to try and steer the debate to the ideas and arguments, and attempt to raise the bar for reason and logical coherence - yet here you sit pointing your finger and carrying on about how much you hate me.

(I'll point out that you make bold assumptions about my motivations and don't back them up with any knowledge.)

Perhaps we'd all be better off if you didn't sidetrack the debates with ad hominem attacks and essays on the ideas you just can't understand and therefore refuse to explore.

The fact that your ideas are indefensible speaks for itself. If you had good reason to believe the things you did, you could explain them in a coherent manner.

Perhaps you would be better off learning how to construct a logically coherent and valid argument, and then come back.

Posted by tekriter There is no more reason to believe this than there is to believe a sky god, that kills his own kid, created us and cares what we do with our penises.

I wasn't being sarcastic...

Posted by MonkeyPunchBaby I am done even trying to talk to you tek. People like you are the reason intelligent discourse is dying. Everyone else seems to be interested in discussing ideas and beliefs no matter how different they are from their own beliefs. I will from here on ignore everything you say because you contribute nothing but ignorance and hatred for anyone who doesn't believe what you believe.

I agree that Tek is arrogant and comes down pretty hard on those who are religious. The problem is, he's right.

It doesn't matter whether or not you "believe" in evolution. It's a fact. It's been proven as well as pretty much any other theory in science through a convergence of many disciplines. There are indeed some holes, but those are constantly being filled, and the filler continues to confirm what scientists have been theorizing for over 100 years. That there are still gaps in our knowledge does not in any way invalidate the theory, and it certainly does not mean that intelligent design/biblical creationism is true.

I think Tek & I have pretty much proven our case, without going into more technical scientific evidence that I dare say none of us understands. But I'm sure that doesn't matter to certain people. You will continue to believe what you want, because its hard for people to give up cherished beliefs, especially when they are so closely linked with our identity.

The only thing I would ask of our true believers is to think about what we've talked about, and do some research on your own. Don't make excuses for your beliefs; arrive at them honestly.

Posted by splumer

evolution is not law or fact. it is widely accepted as such but it isnt. which is why it is still theory. I'm not saying i think god struck the ground and and we we all were fully formed. i believe that over time we have gradually adapted to our environment and have changed. i don't believe we evolved from monkeys or microbes. if that was the case why is the alligator largely unchanged since pre historic times? i'm not saying evolution is a hoax or bullshit. but the evidence i have seen leads me to believe its not how it happened. i also not saying god creating everything is fact or law. its just the thing that makes teh most sense to me. perhaps you are more scientifically minded than i am that you can follow the logic. but for me it falls short or being an answer that makes more sense than a "sky god" did it all. i know that sounds silly. perhaps its because i like to believe there is a grand plan for us and that someone is watching over me. or maybe im an idiot like fundamental christians. my thing is though, that i never feel like i have the answers. in a situation like this, no one can proved right until we as a society know for sure 100% what happened. but you are by no means wrong in what you believe. look at how we screw things up. we thought the world was flat, the sun went around the earth, pluto was a planet, the kardashians are famous. we as humans screw up far too often for me to believe in what others think. my beliefs are fairly unique and different. im not a christian. i dont believe the bible. i dont believe in the rapture.

Posted by MonkeyPunchBaby believe there is a grand plan for us and that someone is watching over me.

sorry, kiddo, you're here on your own and there is no grand plan. What you do is what you do and where you go with that is all you.

Posted by Samurai sorry, kiddo, you're here on your own and there is no grand plan. What you do is what you do and where you go with that is all you.

then i guess when i die i will be a zombie and a ghost

Posted by MonkeyPunchBaby then i guess when i die i will be a zombie and a ghost

better that than to die a slave on your knees believing in something that is bullshit. besides, what kind of creator wants its subjects living on their knees?

god is the will of old men thousands of years ago. you're believing in one of the grandest hoaxes ever played on man.

Posted by MonkeyPunchBaby i believe that over time we have gradually adapted to our environment and have changed.

Well, that certainly explains whales.

I would have chimed in on this conversation, but it became such an ugly mess of massive paragraphs, ad hominem attacks, people trying to out wordsmith the other, that it has become impossible to give any semblance of a fuck about your debate, but I'm going to post a hypocritically long answer anyway.

but I do raise some questions.

Why is it anytime a creationist is arguing against evolution, they try to throw the big bang theory and the origin of the universe into it? These two things are totally unrelated. Stop trying to discredit Darwin with "well where did the universe come from?"

Also, why can't a Creationist EVER argue for creationism by doing something other than just try to poke holes in the theory of evolution.
(at least I've never fucking seen it)

Lets say this.

Bob says the sky is red.
Bill says the sky is orange.
Bill proves that Bob is wrong, but does that make Bill right?

NO.

They are two conflicting theories about species. One of them is based on a MOUNTAIN OF EVIDENCE.

The other is based on A SINGLE COLLECTION OF TEXTS WITH QUESTIONABLE VERACITY.

I'm a logical human being. Guess which one I believe in.

Back on the actual topic though, it is really dangerous to try to pass off pseudoscience as real science. All it will do is teach the children to not think for themselves and just accept what they're told on face value. It's not healthy, and is the sole reason shit like the tea party has happened.

You can believe whatever the fuck you want, but unless you can actually back it up with some FACTS and PROOF without simply resorting to criticizing the other theory, I refuse to respect your stance as anything but moronic.

So Eugenics was right?

Posted by MonkeyPunchBaby evolution is not law or fact.

Kinda like gravity.

Please take this opportunity to fall up a flight of steps to show how easy it is to invalidate a "theory".

Posted by jeepdave So Eugenics was right?

Remove the racial/religious/ethnic component from it and fuck yeah.

Posted by underdark Remove the racial/religious/ethnic component from it and fuck yeah.

But to be true to science, you have to take 2 of those in consideration. NOT remove them just because they seem mean. You can have your cake, etc.

Posted by jeepdave So Eugenics was right?

In the absence of moral considerations, sure, eugenics works. It's artificial selection. Our society doesn't find it to be morally defensible, though, for reasons I don't think I need to discuss.

Also, why can't a Creationist EVER argue for creationism by doing something other than just try to poke holes in the theory of evolution.

That's one of the problems with those who advocate intelligent design. Perceived "holes" in evolutionary theory don't necessarily mean that God created everything 6000 years ago. There's a name for that type of argument, but I can't recall it at the moment.

You can believe whatever the fuck you want, but unless you can actually back it up with some FACTS and PROOF without simply resorting to criticizing the other theory, I refuse to respect your stance as anything but moronic.

Extraordinary claims require extraordinary evidence. Imagine that only one person believed in Biblical creation, and was telling you about it. You'd ask for proof, right? millions (perhaps billions) believe at least some part of it, though, so it carries a little more weight, but that doesn't make it true.

There's a branch of philosophy that maintains that reality is only as we perceive it, and that everything we perceive is merely an illusion created by our brains. Of course, what passes for reality differs from person to person, but in large part we agree on what is real and what is not. So you really can't prove that that's NOT true, but a claim like that would have to be backed up by some evidence, no?

Posted by splumer That's one of the problems with those who advocate intelligent design. Perceived "holes" in evolutionary theory don't necessarily mean that God created everything 6000 years ago. There's a name for that type of argument, but I can't recall it at the moment.

I believe it's Argumentum Ad Hominem.

Extraordinary claims require extraordinary evidence. Imagine that only one person believed in Biblical creation, and was telling you about it. You'd ask for proof, right? millions (perhaps billions) believe at least some part of it, though, so it carries a little more weight, but that doesn't make it true.

Argumentum Ad Populum. Another logical fallacy, and Bill O'Reilly's favorite when he gets into little cable news disputes with Rachel Maddow.

There's a branch of philosophy that maintains that reality is only as we perceive it, and that everything we perceive is merely an illusion created by our brains. Of course, what passes for reality differs from person to person, but in large part we agree on what is real and what is not. So you really can't prove that that's NOT true, but a claim like that would have to be backed up by some evidence, no?

I think that's the same branch that believes that they don't die, the world simply ends for them, or a very similar branch. I think it was Ayn Rand that said something similar to that though, that reality and consciousness exist separate from each other and we only perceive reality through our senses and logic. That's pretty hard (probably impossible) to prove, but I wouldn't call it ridiculous.

Touchdown Jesus (giant statue of jesus north of Cincinnati) got hit by lightning. Some percieved that as proof that Satan is coming. Some just saw it as a hilariously ironic circumstance. We all have our own perceptions of reality.

Posted by budda Argumentum Ad Populum. Another logical fallacy, and Bill O'Reilly's favorite when he gets into little cable news disputes with Rachel Maddow.

Also known as: 100,000,000 Elvis fans can't be wrong.

Posted by splumer Also known as: 100,000,000 Elvis fans can't be wrong.

Except for liking Elvis...

Chuck Berry is what Elvis could have been if he was good.

Posted by budda Chuck Berry is what Elvis could have been if he was good.