To say one believes in god is like saying one believes in love or the ocean, it's all well and good, but the point isn't to think they exist but rather to experience them. I do not believe in love, I am in love; I don't believe in the ocean, I surf.


Discus.


(not claiming god is love or some hippy bullshit, in fact I hate the term god in general and I do consider myself an atheist but in the original way the title was used)

Posted by earthworm To say one believes in god is like saying one believes in love or the ocean, it's all well and good, but the point isn't to think they exist but rather to experience them. I do not believe in love, I am in love; I don't believe in the ocean, I surf. Discus. (not claiming god is love or some hippy bullshit, in fact I hate the term god in general and I do consider myself an atheist but in the original way the title was used)

Seeing how the mechanics work. . . in what you said about love, I would modify it thus: "I do not believe in love, I am love"

Again, no hippy shit. Basic mechanics.

Posted by dirt Seeing how the mechanics work. . . in what you said about love, I would modify it thus: "I do not believe in love, I am love" Again, no hippy shit. Basic mechanics.

That would lead to the claim I am god, which is not the basis of the above statement, and an entirely different principle.

Posted by earthworm That would lead to the claim I am god, which is not the basis of the above statement, and an entirely different principle.

Is it? How else does one experience it? These ideas of separate is what causes confusion in the first place.

To use a term like "God" is to end much conversation before it starts. We have to establish what we mean by "God" first. I don't believe in a guy w/a long, white beard, but I do believe in a benevolent force in everyone. When we see that at work, we see God.

Posted by dirt Is it? How else does one experience it? These ideas of separate is what causes confusion in the first place.

The model I'm using I have laid out in this thread. I would also put forth the principle you put forth about unity with "god" but do it in a more nuianced way.

http://www.uer.ca/...d=87787&currpage=2

Posted by G to the Race To use a term like "God" is to end much conversation before it starts. We have to establish what we mean by "God" first. I don't believe in a guy w/a long, white beard, but I do believe in a benevolent force in everyone. When we see that at work, we see God.

I think that's part of the problem. There isn't an objective definition of god, although many believers will say that there is indeed one, and that others ideas of god are false.

I think when people start defining god as an abstraction, it essentially makes the idea of god meaningless.

ok. by definition:

i do not believe in a god
i do not believe in the concept of god
i do not believe that there is a devine, omnipotent being
i do not believe that there is a karmic scorecard
i do not believe in the afterlife/heaven/hell/purgatory


izzat clear enough?

Posted by Samurai ok. by definition: i do not believe in a god i do not believe in the concept of god i do not believe that there is a devine, omnipotent being i do not believe that there is a karmic scorecard i do not believe in the afterlife/heaven/hell/purgatory izzat clear enough?

I agree with all of those, yet still consider myself spiritual.

Posted by MutantMandias I agree with all of those, yet still consider myself spiritual.

Ditto

Posted by splumer I think that's part of the problem. There isn't an objective definition of god, although many believers will say that there is indeed one, and that others ideas of god are false. I think when people start defining god as an abstraction, it essentially makes the idea of god meaningless.

Again, I am not a believer, and I did put forward a pretty objective definition of "god" in another thread. I don't view it as an abstraction either, but rather a fundamental aspect of the universe. Still, it is essentially meaningless in some sense; it needs to be experienced rather than just believed in, just like a surfer doesn't need to believe in the ocean, but has to be in it to surf.


I'm really interested to hear the Christians respond to this rather than just the boring run of the mill athiests (no offense guys, but it gets old pretty fast).

Posted by earthworm Again, I am not a believer, and I did put forward a pretty objective definition of "god" in another thread. I don't view it as an abstraction either, but rather a fundamental aspect of the universe. Still, it is essentially meaningless in some sense; it needs to be experienced rather than just believed in, just like a surfer doesn't need to believe in the ocean, but has to be in it to surf. I'm really interested to hear the Christians respond to this rather than just the boring run of the mill athiests (no offense guys, but it gets old pretty fast).

The thing is, though, the ocean is a real, tangible object. Whether god is real or not certainly is open to debate, but his tangibility is not. In order to surf, you don't need to "believe" in the ocean because the ocean will be there whether you believe in it or not. Whether you choose to accept the objective reality of the ocean's existence is the issue. You could choose not to accept it, and we'll find your bloated, fish-nibbled corpse washed up on shore some day.

I think for believers in god, his existence is unquestionable; it's whether you choose to accept the objective reality of god.

I realize you want believers' perspectives, but I consider myself a neutral observer and thus better able to comment than someone whose mind is already made up.

It's real simple for me. The evidence of God is in the complexities of life that I see everyday. My consciousness, perception of reality, love and deepest emotions are from a created source, not from some accident of random particles.

My belief in God stems from my perception of life. Life and the existence of it, IS God. Meaning, who He is, is described in the world He created.

Edit* This is not to be twisted like the pagans did and worship the planet and trees and what not.

I believe in God, at least my definition of God. There are several intangible objects that I KNOW exist. For instance love. I wasn't sure it was real or not until I held my son for the first time.

Here is a pic of me holding my son right after he was born:


I have never cried so much in life. At my wedding, when i have broken bones, when my parents got divorced. None of those come close to when I first held. I cried so much bc I love him so much. Until he was born, I didn't know what true love was.

back to God. I'm not sure why I believe in God. I don't believe in what the bible says. I am not a member of any major religion. i disagree strongly on most every religion on who is getting to heaven. But i have this belief that God is there is for me. I don't believe God really gives a shit about my day to day life, please god help me finish this post. in your name name. I believe we are Gods ant farm. God created and then was like, alright lets see what happens. Will they kill themselves? How long before they fuck everything up.

With all the being said, I don't believe God is a person. I guess I see God as more or wizard or some shit like that. As a being experimenting and figuring out what to do. Like the old man in the movie 9. We are the dolls and he put his soul in us.

What I believe is very weird, and I can't full put it down in words. I can say it, but not type it.

Posted by splumer The thing is, though, the ocean is a real, tangible object. Whether god is real or not certainly is open to debate, but his tangibility is not. In order to surf, you don't need to "believe" in the ocean because the ocean will be there whether you believe in it or not. Whether you choose to accept the objective reality of the ocean's existence is the issue. You could choose not to accept it, and we'll find your bloated, fish-nibbled corpse washed up on shore some day. I think for believers in god, his existence is unquestionable; it's whether you choose to accept the objective reality of god. I realize you want believers' perspectives, but I consider myself a neutral observer and thus better able to comment than someone whose mind is already made up.

You're getting at the heart of the statement and side skirting what it's saying at the same time.

Posted by Mr_Fiend Edit* This is not to be twisted like the pagans did and worship the planet and trees and what not.

why not?

Posted by earthworm why not?

If you created something, wouldnt you find it insulting if people gave all the credit to that thing and glorified it, instead of giving you the credit for making it in the first place?

Posted by Mr_Fiend If you created something, wouldnt you find it insulting if people gave all the credit to that thing and glorified it, instead of giving you the credit for making it in the first place?

God doesn't care who gets the credit, he just wants us to become the best human being we can. He would like for us to acknowledge Him and respect Him, but he cannot force that. I think God got the ball rolling, stayed in it a lil more in the beginning to get folks going in the right direction, and has sense backed off to see where this goes. The more evolved we become, the more we don't think we need Him. I'm not sure how long he will let that go, since he knows an out right show of force or existence would erase faith from everyone, especially in the day and age of documentation. We are his big etch-a-sketch and its not gonna be long till he turns it upside down, shakes it, and starts over.

Posted by Mr_Fiend If you created something, wouldnt you find it insulting if people gave all the credit to that thing and glorified it, instead of giving you the credit for making it in the first place?

so what is god? the holy galactic sandwich artist?
no. i don't get spirituality at all... the universe is swell and all that, and i experience it on a daily basis, but to expect that ONE THING created billions and billions and billions of details, you'd think the fucker would show up to the millions of world out there and go 'yup, i did this. i made aaaaaaaaaallllll this shit and you are my bitches.' I find that a bit hard to swallow.

i don't know... i think it would just be better if there was no god. god doesn't make sunrises or sunsets. the world spinning handles that. god doesn't make babies. people fucking make babies. god doesn't cause calamities and natural disasters. a pissed off earth caters to that. i just don't see a place for god anywhere on my dance card.

maybe i wouldn't despise religion so much if the people that were most vocal about being religious weren't such fucking hypocrites and imbeciles.

there was more to this, but i've got to get in the shower and go to a birthday party.

Posted by Samurai you'd think the fucker would show up to the millions of world out there and go 'yup, i did this. i made aaaaaaaaaallllll this shit and you are my bitches.' I find that a bit hard to swallow.

Um, He did, in the flesh, and people STILL didnt believe him... It wouldnt be any different now. Actually it would, he would be mocked and killed even quicker.