Posted by HarvestmanMan What else do you call the result of pregnancy? It's just that I see that all the time and never seem to get a definitive answer to the question of "if it isn't a child, then what is it".

An egg fertilized by sperm, or zygote. Not a child, not a baby, not a fetus.

Oh fuck it this argument is going nowhere unless the intent was to aggravate the hell out of everyone.

Posted by MutantMandias Sigh. It is extremely tedious watching you try to stumble into tricking me into some kind trap based on word definitions. You can call it whatever you want, but whatever you call it doesn't change what it is. Can we agree on these two points? I am mostly opposed to abortion after birth. I am not at all opposed to birth control. The difference between you and most people is that we do not think that, after sperm and before birth, there is a single instant in time in which a living, breathing creature comes into full blown existence. We believe that simply because there is no such moment in time.

im not trying to trick you. You said abortion is not killing a child, then provided a time when a child forms. So I was just wanting clarification on that. If the definition doesn't apply then why use it? If a child exists at 11 weeks, then is aborted, then a child was killed? Am I right or did I miss something?

Also I believe the abortion issue is fairly evenly divided, so to say most disagree or agree with one side isn't a true statement.

I also am not opposed to any form of birth control. But abortion is not birth control, its a medical procedure.

There is no point when a "child" comes into being, so talking about "killing a child" is pointless. I assume that you are okay with letting sperm die, and I assume that you are okay with a woman not impregnating every egg that she ovulates. Every sane person agrees about that.

You seem to believe that the moment the sperm and egg touch changes things. The majority of people dont, but a lot do. I have never heard any reasonable explanation for this belief.

I believe that there is no issue whatsoever with squishing a zygote. It is no more concerning than blowing your nose. I don't believe that a baby that can survive on its own outside of the mother should be killed. In between those two points is fuzzy. I don't have an exact point in time in mind, because there is no rational point in time that is definable as the point that a human starts.

The fun thing is, the mere fact that you and I disagree on this point demonstrates that you are wrong.

The only way to reasonably talk about this as a society is to use the view of the members of the society in general. Since you pick one point in time, and I say that it is some indeterminate later time, the resulting consensus is some indeterminate time after the time that you say. There is no question that the vast majority of people fall somewhere in this spectrum, as opposed to right on the fringe that you proclaim.

So, this society views the ending of life after conception as acceptable. There is no exact point when it is right or wrong according to our society, and if you were able to mathematically determine the exact consensus point, it would constantly be moving back and forth in time.

Of course, there wil be laws defined, and they must have some specifics, because that's how shit works. I don't claim that I can pick the "right" number of days, but I am generally okay with the first 2 trimesters as a guideline. The whole process of people arguing about it and debating it and affecting law makers is the closest we can get to finding the societal consensus.

So, your position pulls society closer to your point of demarcation, but it is the absolute fringe edge, and your position is absolutely not the answer for our society as a whole.

I feel like you think this is me.

i feel like if you have penis, it's none of your business what the woman does with her body.
i always hear that argument, "well i'm the daddy and it's my kid." no. you're the sperm donor and its her body. this stupid shit about 'when life begins' is so vague and ridiculous, one can't even argue about it logically. If you followed that thought through, it's the same lunacy that says that men shouldn't jerk off because they're wasting their seed.

the uncomfortable truth is this: THERE ARE TOO FUCKING MANY OF US ON THIS DAMN BALL. In this day and age, the people who shouldn't be breeding are the ones breeding the most. Here's a Hitler moment from the desk of Yours Truly. I think that if you want to have kids you should:

a)both have an IQ test
b)both be financial stable and socially sound
c)both be FORCED to take an 8 month class on parenthood.
and lastly d)undergo genetic testing to make sure that the child will be delivered without complications.

yes, a slice of the master race, right?
what's the alternative? a trailer park in Alabama bursting with unemployed little guido's and their baby-mama's.

Its not just a woman's choice, I know my situation is different, but it still happens more and more. I am single father with full custody, my sons mom has abandoned him. If it were her choice what would happen to him she would give him away. Is that fair? Is that just? The reason I am pro-life is because I don't know when life begins. In just the three years since my son was born, they can detect a heartbeat sooner. To me, if you have a heart beat you are alive. Granted by itself it couldn't survive, but how many of you could survive by yourself in the wilderness? I am willing to bet most of us would be dead in a week. So to use the whole "it couldn't survive by itself" logic is flawed because most of society couldn't survive purely by themselves. Im not saying anyone is wrong for getting an abortion, i have driven friends to abortion clinics because they felt it was what they needed to do. But for me and all the options i have scenarios i have come across, there isn't a single one where i would an abortion done. Abortion is completely legal i. The united states and it helps many people. But if i was in that boat, i couldn't support it or be proud of myself for making that decision.

Posted by Samurai be FORCED to take an 8 month class on parenthood.

Right? Gawd, even a few days would do. Raising kids is a lot of effort, but it isn't that complicated.

Posted by MonkeyPunchBaby The reason I am pro-life

Let's say you're Anti-Choice; it's less loaded with baggage.

Posted by MonkeyPunchBaby im not trying to trick you. You said abortion is not killing a child, then provided a time when a child forms. So I was just wanting clarification on that. If the definition doesn't apply then why use it? If a child exists at 11 weeks, then is aborted, then a child was killed? Am I right or did I miss something?

That's the issue which has divided everyone. No one can agree at what point a fetus becomes a child. People used to think "ensoulment" began when the mother could feel movement. But this isn't an issue which is really medically identifiable, and thus the controversy. Also, it's a good reason to stop the argument. It's going nowhere.

Interestingly, I have a friend who was the product of a rape.

Good news! If you aren't knocked up it's still none of your business! Even if you provided the sperm.

Let's look at this the other way...
If you think your personal beliefs should be forced on someone else concerning them spending nine months hosting a child they don't want, how about if I force mine on you and yours?

As an example, I'm the guy that wants to cap global population at four billion. I'll let you figure out what that entails. Still think laws dictating the government controlling reproduction are a good idea?

I wonder if some day, unwilling mothers can have their fetuses (feti?) removed and placed inside a willing mother. They're kind of on the verge of being able to do that now.

They should be removed and placed into the stomachs of Republican politicians.

Posted by splumer I wonder if some day, unwilling mothers can have their fetuses (feti?) removed and placed inside a willing mother. They're kind of on the verge of being able to do that now.

And who is gonna be paying for this? That just sounds expensive as hell.

After doing some long and hard soul searching and thinking I have decided that no one can be wrong about abortion. So I guess, I'm technically pro-choice but only when needed. Theres a lot of what ifs, what if its rape/incest/harmful to the mother etc, that make me sit there and go, well in that case it should be perfectly legal and accepted for someone to get an abortion. But I also feel like a lot of people aren't pro-choice but more pro-abortion, which bothers me. Abortion should be a last resort for anyone, and not used as a form of birth control. Abortion has a major psychological impact on all parties involved, so to cause that kind of mental anguish for someone shouldn't be something we are advocating.

Posted by underdark And who is gonna be paying for this? That just sounds expensive as hell.

Probably no more than in vitro fertilization. BUT IT'S WORTH IT TO SAVE BAYBEEEEES!