I've driven a Smart ForTwo Passion, and I hated it. It felt cheap, was super tiny, and had copious amounts of road noise at 30mph. This is all ignoring the fact that I could barely fit in it to begin with because it's so small.

Brakes are incredibly mushy and the transmission is a piece of crap. It's a part-time manumatic with full-time manual override and it doesn't shift smoothly when you choose to shift it. Stopping is also a lot of effort, because of the mushy brakes and the tiny wheels. Overall feel of the car is that it's terribly cheap and not too safe.

Driving it around under 40 can be a blast, since it feels like a little go-kart, until you try to make a fairly hard turn anywhere between 30 and 40mph, in which case those tiny little tires just don't handle the load. Understeer is INCREDIBLY evident, power steering is both weak and numb, torque steer is surprisingly bad, since power steering doesn't counter it very well.

Yeah, it gets 45mpg, but it's a 73hp inline 3cyl. It's got go-kart acceleration until about 30, and then it's really dogging to get up to highway speeds. Driving it over 55 is a joke, the car is so light that just about any other car on the highway causes enough movement in the air to push you all over the road. Forget about being anywhere near a tractor trailer, because you'll honestly see your life flash before your eyes.

All in all, a frightening chore of a car to drive worth far less money than they charge. Get a Nissan Versa or a Honda Fit instead, and enjoy the extra cargo space and a significantly better car all around while still getting 35mpg.

Posted by velcrozeppelin I've driven a Smart ForTwo Passion, and I hated it. It felt cheap, was super tiny, and had copious amounts of road noise at 30mph. This is all ignoring the fact that I could barely fit in it to begin with because it's so small. Brakes are incredibly mushy and the transmission is a piece of crap. It's a part-time manumatic with full-time manual override and it doesn't shift smoothly when you choose to shift it. Stopping is also a lot of effort, because of the mushy brakes and the tiny wheels. Overall feel of the car is that it's terribly cheap and not too safe. Driving it around under 40 can be a blast, since it feels like a little go-kart, until you try to make a fairly hard turn anywhere between 30 and 40mph, in which case those tiny little tires just don't handle the load. Understeer is INCREDIBLY evident, power steering is both weak and numb, torque steer is surprisingly bad, since power steering doesn't counter it very well. Yeah, it gets 45mpg, but it's a 73hp inline 3cyl. It's got go-kart acceleration until about 30, and then it's really dogging to get up to highway speeds. Driving it over 55 is a joke, the car is so light that just about any other car on the highway causes enough movement in the air to push you all over the road. Forget about being anywhere near a tractor trailer, because you'll honestly see your life flash before your eyes. All in all, a frightening chore of a car to drive worth far less money than they charge. Get a Nissan Versa or a Honda Fit instead, and enjoy the extra cargo space and a significantly better car all around while still getting 35mpg.

you know what's funny?
My mom's old 85 Ford Escort 5 door got 45mpg on the highway... with a 2-barrel CARBURETOR! USING 1980's 'technology'... hardy har har. Why the fuck can't Honda or fucking Toyota build a CAR not an APPLIANCE that gets that kind of mileage TODAY?????
35mpg out of todays fuel injected 4 cylinder is just, well, poor.

Posted by Samurai you know what's funny? My mom's old 85 Ford Escort 5 door got 45mpg on the highway... with a 2-barrel CARBURETOR! USING 1980's 'technology'... hardy har har. Why the fuck can't Honda or fucking Toyota build a CAR not an APPLIANCE that gets that kind of mileage TODAY????? 35mpg out of todays fuel injected 4 cylinder is just, well, poor.

I agree 100%. The main problem I think Sam is there is not such thing as an Economy car. They have power everything, extra sound proofing, tons of emissions tech and sensors, impact beams, airbags, "safety cages" and many other things that all add weight. Hell, my 89 GT Mustang on a road trip to Mytrle Beach back in 98 got 28.4 mpg!!!! Of course thats when we had real gasoline and it was a 5 speed.

Posted by Samurai you know what's funny? My mom's old 85 Ford Escort 5 door got 45mpg on the highway... with a 2-barrel CARBURETOR! USING 1980's 'technology'... hardy har har. Why the fuck can't Honda or fucking Toyota build a CAR not an APPLIANCE that gets that kind of mileage TODAY????? 35mpg out of todays fuel injected 4 cylinder is just, well, poor.

"Honda and fucking Toyota" both built similar cars that got similar fuel economy. It's a failure of technology, a failure of culture, and a failure of common sense that 30MPG is considered "good" now. We should have cars on the market now that get 50MPG and are the size of a Lincoln Town Car.

I want a Smart for its gokart-ness. I couldn't care any less about the fuel economy. It has RWD, the engine in a place that makes a motorcycle swap easy, and a built-in excuse to not carpool.

Posted by wannabeotaku a failure of common sense

isn't that the truth... where did common sense go?
I remember that with my 91 Cavalier with a 2.2L OHV engine with a throttle body fuel injection could go from Rockville, Maryland to Glens Falls NY on a single tank of gas, 14 gallons of fuel... 31 mpg @ 75mph... and that, again, was 1980's technology.
my friend had a Corolla that went forever on a tank of gas... an 82 Corolla with a 1.8L OHC/2bbl carburetor? What the hell happened?

Posted by Samurai Why the fuck can't Honda or fucking Toyota build a CAR not an APPLIANCE that gets that kind of mileage TODAY?????

that's the kind of question we all need to be asking, because the technology is there and automakers are very capable of using it. unfortunately, the big oil lobbyists have very deep pockets and have been very successful in blocking any government legislation requiring automakers to tighten their CAFE standards.

Canada is not without blame on this one either, because there is an electric car being built in Quebec called the ZENN (zero emission no noise) car, and the Harper government won't allow it to be sold here, on its HOME TURF because (it's rumored) doing so would threaten the tar sands economy. theyre limiting the market for this car through red tape. The whole thing's so ridiculous even Rick Mercer did a featured report about it:

http://www.youtube...atch?v=QY9g30CthKE

it's not a perfect miracle solution, but its story outlines government bureaucracy getting in the way of real progress towards efficient cars...

oh, theres also a youtbe vid out there showing a smart with a hayabusa engine in it, look it up if you want a good laugh...

exactly my point.
it amazes me that the government agencies are talking out of both sides of their mouth... they want safer cars, but better fuel economy.
Answer me this: Does a car really need 8 air bags? Does it really need all these co-called convenience and comfort options? Has America/Canada become so lazy that they cannot drive manual transmission any longer?

Posted by bandi Riiight, the VW Up. I've read about that. See, at least it looks almost like a car... not a golf cart!

Exactly, they should make a diesel version too. There's got to be something cool though about never having to go to a gas station. Plug it in at night, run around town all day. Keep the truck or whatever for what it's made for.

The Jeep Liberty and the Jeep Compass (a rebadged Caliber) are up there on my list.

I mentioned it in another thread, but: The Pontiac Aztec!

Posted by fatLouie The Jeep Liberty and the Jeep Compass (a rebadged Caliber) are up there on my list. I mentioned it in another thread, but: The Pontiac Aztec!

The Liberty is a good example of the issue with the German management of DalimlerChrysler meddled with a good product. Originally the replacement of the Cherokee was going to be a vehicle known in R&D as the Dakar, which was essentially a extended body YJ with no removable roof and an IFS suspension.

However, when Car & Driver reviewed the 2nd generation Toyota RAV4 and called it "cute", the CEO of DalimlerChrysler in Stuttgart were freaked out over that description and well, R&D had to make some changes that resulted in the Liberty. From what I heard from some ex-Jeep division employees, the R&D guys essentially revolted at that decision and a lot of them quit that day.

The Mopar rumour mill said that DC lured engineers from Ford's F-Series division to come over to the Jeep divison to create the Liberty and I can beleive that. It has a feel of Ford engineering. Evan Boberg, who is a former Mopar/AMC engineer and wrote a cool book about his life at both companies, mentioned you can tell if a Ford guy designed something because they would figure out how thick everything should be before breaking, then double it (My Uncle even was guilty of doing this!)

The Liberty/Compass/Patriot/Commander/ and even New Grand Cherokee are not considered enthusiast Jeeps. IFS has been the worst thing that those damned germans brought to Jeep. Ugh.

Posted by jeepdave The Liberty/Compass/Patriot/Commander/ and even New Grand Cherokee are not considered enthusiast Jeeps. IFS has been the worst thing that those damned germans brought to Jeep. Ugh.

Actually, the IFS concept to the Jeep lineup is not a German innovation. Jeep INVENTED the IFS back in...1962. It was offered as a option on the Wagoneer and actually was just as popular as the spring coil suspension.

Posted by Agent Skelly It has a feel of Ford engineering.

So it's a slut to work on, every fastener snaps off flush, and it feels worn out from the factory?

Evan Boberg, who is a former Mopar/AMC engineer and wrote a cool book about his life at both companies, mentioned you can tell if a Ford guy designed something because they would figure out how thick everything should be before breaking, then double it (My Uncle even was guilty of doing this!)

Bull. Fucking. Shit. I service the fleet vehicles for Kiewitt Construction at work, about half of them are Fords, half are GMs... I cannot believe the sub-par materials that Ford uses. Did a starter on an '08 F-150 last week, 2 of the three mounting bolts broke off flush with the bellhousing. I've had similar experiences with other Ford stuff, u bolts breaking, caliper bracket bolts breaking, break drums/rotors rusting onto the rear hubs so badly they have to be cut off.

A friend of mine works at a Ford dealership in Alberta, he says they have to remove the cab from most of the trucks to do anything mechanical on the engine.

And also, have you ever driven a Ranger? What an offensive vehicle to drive, which is too bad, cuz they are a great looking little truck.

I'd rather work on or drive a Dodge or GM over a Ford ANY day.

...unless it's a '68 Mustang fastback.

Posted by bandi So it's a slut to work on, every fastener snaps off flush, and it feels worn out from the factory? Bull. Fucking. Shit. I service the fleet vehicles for Kiewitt Construction at work, about half of them are Fords, half are GMs... I cannot believe the sub-par materials that Ford uses. Did a starter on an '08 F-150 last week, 2 of the three mounting bolts broke off flush with the bellhousing. I've had similar experiences with other Ford stuff, u bolts breaking, caliper bracket bolts breaking, break drums/rotors rusting onto the rear hubs so badly they have to be cut off. A friend of mine works at a Ford dealership in Alberta, he says they have to remove the cab from most of the trucks to do anything mechanical on the engine. And also, have you ever driven a Ranger? What an offensive vehicle to drive, which is too bad, cuz they are a great looking little truck. I'd rather work on or drive a Dodge or GM over a Ford ANY day. ...unless it's a '68 Mustang fastback.

my brother used to be a Ford guy until he started his career as a technician... he hates Fords now. He has been converted to the dark side and even drives Chevrolets now. It really galls my dad who bleeds Ford Blue.

Posted by bandi So it's a slut to work on, every fastener snaps off flush, and it feels worn out from the factory? Bull. Fucking. Shit. I service the fleet vehicles for Kiewitt Construction at work, about half of them are Fords, half are GMs... I cannot believe the sub-par materials that Ford uses. Did a starter on an '08 F-150 last week, 2 of the three mounting bolts broke off flush with the bellhousing. I've had similar experiences with other Ford stuff, u bolts breaking, caliper bracket bolts breaking, break drums/rotors rusting onto the rear hubs so badly they have to be cut off. A friend of mine works at a Ford dealership in Alberta, he says they have to remove the cab from most of the trucks to do anything mechanical on the engine. And also, have you ever driven a Ranger? What an offensive vehicle to drive, which is too bad, cuz they are a great looking little truck. I'd rather work on or drive a Dodge or GM over a Ford ANY day. ...unless it's a '68 Mustang fastback.

I should of mentioned that was regarding the body. He goes more on other Ford engineering faux-pas which is a whole different topic. And yet, all that special Ford over-engineering didn't help them in that time period.

I like the Ranger; its a simple little truck. And yes, I have worked on them; no more different than working on my Isuzu Rodeo (dba Honda Passport) in my experience.

When there was hassles with my pre arranged rental of a GMC Envoy last fall,
I said okay, gimme a small car. I ended up in a Ford Fusion, drove it ten kilometres, pulled a U-Turn, took it back and said: End this contract now! (please).

A. It smelled like a Mary Kay salesperson had spilled her sample bag in it. (reeked of purfume). Okay, that's not Ford engineering's fault.

B. The engine and trans. Sorry but if these two items work well, or even individually have merits, I'll overlook bad heater control placement knobs, non matching color floor matts, etc.

3. Hard to enter and exit, cramped, crummy video game lighting scheme, visibility limited. Make a square car that handles, and I'm in. eg: BWM Sport Sedans

That engine was the most screaming twitchy going nowhere whinny POS I've driven in decades. Unlike the Turbo trend of the 80's, when we got used to 'turbo lag', and the fun after it kicks in. Well, this thing would wind up like a kids toy. Press the gas half down, wait, scream.... then a lurch forward like a slipping clutch, followed by almost conking out if you lift your foot 1mm off the gas.

The CVT Nissan Rogue I rented two years ago was ten times the auto, in the same class. Sorry. I'd love to see domestics earn back the respect, sometimes it happens, some imports are overrated or crap too, but the Ford Confusion is high on my list for title of this thread.

The best thing was; (Domestic plug), took my high mileage 95 Tahoe on the trip, 6K, never missed a beat and carried half a ton of stuff back.

Pardon rant, but it feels good now and again If we demand better cars, maybe we'll get them.

Posted by Agent Skelly Actually, the IFS concept to the Jeep lineup is not a German innovation. Jeep INVENTED the IFS back in...1962. It was offered as a option on the Wagoneer and actually was just as popular as the spring coil suspension.

True. 63 Wagoneer I think. BUT it was a short lived option and hated. Off road it doesn't stack up (someone will say Hummer H1, yeah. Enjoy that). Most true off road enthusiast beg for solid axles all around. More reliable and simply better/stronger off road. If jeep would have just gotten over its Dana 35 rears years ago.....

Posted by jeepdave True. 63 Wagoneer I think. BUT it was a short lived option and hated. Off road it doesn't stack up (someone will say Hummer H1, yeah. Enjoy that). Most true off road enthusiast beg for solid axles all around. More reliable and simply better/stronger off road. If jeep would have just gotten over its Dana 35 rears years ago.....

It does stack up; but not in the H1 like you said, but in the HMMV. The problem is that most IFS suspensions you see today are just plain awful. They are tuned for the road rather than the trail.

I love the old spring coil suspension as its a great piece of retro tech that just works, but Chyrsler did have a great IFS that also did just work like the spring coil did. It was not until the JK Wranglers did it appear the way it was intended which I know you don't care for I believe (even though they are just as capable)

Posted by A. Lien When there was hassles with my pre arranged rental of a GMC Envoy last fall, I said okay, gimme a small car. I ended up in a Ford Fusion, drove it ten kilometres, pulled a U-Turn, took it back and said: End this contract now! (please). A. It smelled like a Mary Kay salesperson had spilled her sample bag in it. (reeked of purfume). Okay, that's not Ford engineering's fault. B. The engine and trans. Sorry but if these two items work well, or even individually have merits, I'll overlook bad heater control placement knobs, non matching color floor matts, etc. 3. Hard to enter and exit, cramped, crummy video game lighting scheme, visibility limited. Make a square car that handles, and I'm in. eg: BWM Sport Sedans That engine was the most screaming twitchy going nowhere whinny POS I've driven in decades. Unlike the Turbo trend of the 80's, when we got used to 'turbo lag', and the fun after it kicks in. Well, this thing would wind up like a kids toy. Press the gas half down, wait, scream.... then a lurch forward like a slipping clutch, followed by almost conking out if you lift your foot 1mm off the gas. The CVT Nissan Rogue I rented two years ago was ten times the auto, in the same class. Sorry. I'd love to see domestics earn back the respect, sometimes it happens, some imports are overrated or crap too, but the Ford Confusion is high on my list for title of this thread. The best thing was; (Domestic plug), took my high mileage 95 Tahoe on the trip, 6K, never missed a beat and carried half a ton of stuff back. Pardon rant, but it feels good now and again If we demand better cars, maybe we'll get them.

after some shitty starts, I think GM really makes an awesome engine/transmission combo... they learned their lesson EARLY with the CVT Saturn Vue... (groan)

Here's the thing with the Caliber, in particular, the SRT4.

It's fucking scary to drive. With the normal 2.0 and 2.4 I4's, it's kinda scary. It handles like it's got palsy and accelerates very erratically. Adding a turbo puts the car to about 300hp when it's meant for 125. Add high-revving gearing to it, your boost builds instantly, and you're just fucked. Oh yeah, add torque steer and particularly dead steering feel on top. Doesn't matter how fast you're going, chances are good you're accelerating like a bat out of hell and have no control over it. Imagine being strapped to a poorly made firecracker.

It's like driving an 80's Volvo diesel at 100. It's fun because it's so fucking scary, but you can only go for so long before you run out of cojones.