Posted by CatalogOfCulture At the end of the day the institutions may be misguided but the individual people and churches tend to do a lot of good. I don't think the church takes care of the downtrodden, elderly, sick, homeless, etc because they are evil. And they spend far more than any gov't handouts received if that is what anyone was thinking.

At the end of the day, you don't need to believe in magical beings to do good things.

A few soup kitchens don't make up for the legions of people who were killed, enslaved or tortured in the name of the lord speciffically because of magical thinking.

Posted by CatalogOfCulture Jesus, who a lot of scholars agree existed (Google historical Jesus), was pretty ahead of his time with a message of acceptance, peace and love. A lot of the Bible may be bolted on bullshit but the new testament is kind of about that guy.

If we base our assessment of jesus on scripture (and we ought to, since we are discussing the relative merits of the commandments found in scripture) then Jesus was "coo coo for cocopuffs" INSANE.

Consider modern diagnostic tools and you can see he was clearly a psychopath or at best a demented sociopath:

He wanted to create a new world order.

Disparity between behaviour and the prevailing social norms.

Relative unconcern for the feelings of most Pharisees and priests or scribes of Israel.

Persistent disregard for social norms, rules and obligations, but speaking with two mouths in so doing.

Having difficulty in establishing social relations. - For what it is worth, take into account such as: the authorities had Jesus killed, his relatives wanted to drive him out of a cliff, and almost all of his disciples ("the seventy") left him because of his hard words, and the remaining twelve disciples just let him be arrested.

Low tolerance to frustration, as witnessed by his cursing a fig tree.

A low threshold for discharge of aggression, including violence, in the same episode.

Incapacity to profit from his punishment, insisting to be God throughout.

Marked proneness to blame others for what brought him into conflict with society.

Quite irritable as an associated feature.



jesus also displayed typical Narcissistic behavior:

Utter, fancied grandiosity, a call to be admired, an inability to see the viewpoints of others, etc.

An excessive sense of how important they are.

They demand and expect to be admired and praised by others and are limited in their capacity to appreciate others' perspectives.

Need for admiration ("You are the Messiah (Christ)") - a grandiose sense of self-importance, expecting to be recognized as superior (God, even).

Often occupied with quarrels on account of it.

His (or her) fantasies that serve to illustrate a drive for extreme admiration can hardly understood by close ones at first, only on sound inspection.

Takes advantage of others to achieve his or her own ends - for example by "shanghaiing" disciples.

Peter was taken away from his wife, in fact. Haughty dealings in telling off others that he came from above, they from below.

Posted by MutantMandias The New Testament is mainly about Paul's opinions, who would of course be institutionalized today.

Just trying to point out that at the most basic level Jesus was a guy preaching a pretty good message.

Also, I go about as far as believing there is a supernatural force out there somewhere. I stopped with organized religion a long time ago.

Posted by CatalogOfCulture Just trying to point out that at the most basic level Jesus was a guy preaching a pretty good message.

Mark

7:9 And he said unto them, Full well ye reject the commandment of God, that ye may keep your own tradition.
7:10 For Moses said, Honour thy father and thy mother; and, Whoso curseth father or mother, let him die the death:

What moral lesson does this saying of jesus teach us?

Posted by tekriter Mark 7:9 And he said unto them, Full well ye reject the commandment of God, that ye may keep your own tradition. 7:10 For Moses said, Honour thy father and thy mother; and, Whoso curseth father or mother, let him die the death: What moral lesson does this saying of jesus teach us?

I stopped reading the bible and studying religion in college but here goes...

These are excerpted from a conversation Jesus was having with the [hypocrite] church leaders. He was making the point that everyone was expending time & energy observing the traditions they had created over time. And they would be better served observing the commandments if they want to be close to God.

Sounds pretty good to me... if you want to be closer to God "walk the walk rather than talking the talk".

You're right.

The church only ever ran a few soup kitchens and without religion people would have never found a motivator or reason to butcher each other. Fuck them.



Bottom the line, religious institutions have done more charity work and helped more people than any other organization could ever hope to. Though people have slaughtered each other over religion people are never short on reasons to kill one another, so I really doubt if we took out religion we would all be living in a much greater world.

Fuck man, we may still have slaves, it seems all the abolitionists seemed to be pretty religious folks. Actually, most historical thought about equality seems to have been pushed through by religious movements.

Posted by tekriter At the end of the day, you don't need to believe in magical beings to do good things. A few soup kitchens don't make up for the legions of people who were killed, enslaved or tortured in the name of the lord speciffically because of magical thinking. If we base our assessment of jesus on scripture (and we ought to, since we are discussing the relative merits of the commandments found in scripture) then Jesus was "coo coo for cocopuffs" INSANE. ...... Peter was taken away from his wife, in fact. Haughty dealings in telling off others that he came from above, they from below.

Ahh I had missed ^^^^^ by not scrolling up far enough. For starters I am not even necessarily on this 'side' of the argument but feel a need to defend the position.

I chopped it down to quote but you basically pull the most extreme examples together and some things that don't even make sense.

If you start with the parables Jesus told, which people tend to attribute to the historical Jesus, I see some pretty good messages. Rather than spam the thread I would suggest people Google it or here is one of the first results - http://www.bcbsr.com/survey/jpbl.html.

I bit my tongue earlier but sometimes it seems like people turn hating on religion into it's own religion.

Posted by maypost Now you are just grasping. You can pull up all the antiquated facts you like... it's moot, and you know it. By your logic, because some fanatics 1000+ years ago killed in the name of god, that makes everything in the bible utter crap... But religious people are the small minded ones, right? Bottom line - Respect your parents, dont lie, dont cheat, dont kill, stay true to your faith. All of these sum up the 10 commandments and people who truly live by that tend to be good, moral people. And I was able to get my point across without a massive TL;DR

True, some fanatics killed people 1000 years ago, but it continues. The most rabid supporters of the death penalty are also the most religious, and can point to scripture to prove why the death penalty is OK. I guess "Thou shalt not kill" only applies to nice people. Religious people also bomb abortion clinics and assassinate doctors who perform abortions. I understand there's a difference of opinion on abortion, but how does one show how killing is wrong by killing another person?

Timothy McVeigh (OK City bomber, lest we forget) was a member of the Christian Identity movement. Google 'em.

The Hutaree Militia in Michigan is a paramilitary Christian group hoping to provoke the apocalypse, and, on their web site, have targeted for death anyone who works for ANY government. (Including the guys who empty trash cans at parks. They're evil!)

Yitzhak Rabin was killed by a Jewish fanatic.

I don't need to say anything about Islamic terrorism.

So it continues. Yeah, the Sermon on the Mount was a lot of pretty talk, but how many mainstream churches really follow that philosophy?

This is so mis-informed, that I dont even know where to start. So I wont bother.


All of you people site a handfull of fanatics and present it like that is what the vast majority is up to. You are dead wrong and you know it.

But I digress, I give up.


Your ignorance is your own punishment.

Posted by splumer True, some fanatics killed people 1000 years ago, but it continues. The most rabid supporters of the death penalty are also the most religious, and can point to scripture to prove why the death penalty is OK. I guess "Thou shalt not kill" only applies to nice people. Religious people also bomb abortion clinics and assassinate doctors who perform abortions. I understand there's a difference of opinion on abortion, but how does one show how killing is wrong by killing another person? Timothy McVeigh (OK City bomber, lest we forget) was a member of the Christian Identity movement. Google 'em. The Hutaree Militia in Michigan is a paramilitary Christian group hoping to provoke the apocalypse, and, on their web site, have targeted for death anyone who works for ANY government. (Including the guys who empty trash cans at parks. They're evil!) Yitzhak Rabin was killed by a Jewish fanatic. I don't need to say anything about Islamic terrorism. So it continues. Yeah, the Sermon on the Mount was a lot of pretty talk, but how many mainstream churches really follow that philosophy?

you bring these like these happen every day. the last shooting we had in AZ wasnt religiously motivated. sure there have been fanatics, buts thats with anything. when there are over 1 billion members of anything, you're gonna have some crazies. here are some religious hate groups nation of islam (muslim), westboro baptist church (christian), the manson family (satan), nazis (occult/pagan/gnostic), Sicarii (jewish), etc etc etc. Not just christians. Religious hate crimes and so rare nowadays i dont even know why this is being discussed. In 2009 there were over 1,200 crimes committed against Christian churches and ministries. So christians arent the only ones committing crimes out there against humanity. In fact in recent years the most heinous acts of violence have not been by christians. To hold the actions of few against all members of that faith is like saying every white person is bad bc white people used to own slaves. Perhaps if you and some others stopped being so narrow minded you would see that not all religions are bad. but as of now you sound just like any person of an anti christian hate group. and when it comes to hate, isnt it all bad?

Posted by MonkeyPunchBaby In fact in recent years the most heinous acts of violence have not been by christians.

Thanks to the reformation, reason has eroded christian beliefs and slowed down the occurence of things like the crusades. It is still filled with unreasonable beliefs and those are still used to justify atrocities and other BS like text book stickers.

Wait - didn't george bush call the invasion of iraq a crusade?


Islam - the largest threat to peace on the planet - is just another set of unreasonable beliefs that are used to justify atrocities.


The real culprit here is not just christianity. The crime is not demanding a higher evidentiary standard for the things you believe in.



You can't say that your prophet flew around on unicorn and offer only "faith" and evidence and then expect others to ask for good reasons when a mullah tells the boys its time to fly airliners into buildings. faith should suffice.

And before you get on your x-tian high horse, think about recent history of Bosnia and the christians that filled massed graves and perpetrated genocide against the bosniacs.

And before you parade around the nazis, lets recall that they acted with pure catholic malevolence against the jews while the vatican stood back and let them get on with it.

Jonestown 1978. Jesus cult.

Northern Ireland. Christians killing christians.



In fact the history of holy atrocities could fill volumes. Not one was caused or supported by people asking for more evidence for the things they were asked to believe.

Posted by tekriter Islam - the largest threat to peace on the planet

Ohhh your just a biggot... NOW everything you have posted makes perfect sence.

Thanks for clearing that up.

sometimes its like dealing with a 15 year old who watched religulous. they think they know what the fuck they are talking about. but they dont. they just make shit up as they go along.

Posted by tekriter And before you parade around the nazis, lets recall that they acted with pure catholic malevolence against the jews while the vatican stood back and let them get on with it.

Maybe the Vatican should have declared a crusade on Germany and saved the jews?
Really, what is the Church in 1940 going to do to stop the most powerful military force on the earth? Its widely known by those of use who can read and do not have a hateful agenda that the Vatican staying silent and on decent terms with Nazi Germany allowed them to save the lives of hundreds of thousands of Jews.

Not to mention trying to call Nazi Germany any sort of religious group is pretty ridiculous and the Nazi's were actually very anti-religion of any sort at their core. They saw religion as a major threat. In fact, they acted rather scientifically during the holocaust. Eugenics eh?

To sum it up you are talking out of your ass.

Ironic that you all call me a bigot, yet I'm the only one here not swearing or calling people names. I'm not advocating hate or your "in-group" malevolence.

I'm just pointing out that people do bad things because of bad beliefs.

It seems a bit bigoted to suggest that other groups are evil for thier beliefs but you should be allowed to have yours and ram it down everyone's throats with stone tablets and text book stickers.



Hitler was a formal member of the Catholic Church until the day he died. Some of his statements on religion were contradictory, but his political platform was based on the belief that GOD created the aryan race as superior.

There is no argument that the central theme of the holocaust was based on Hitler's very catholic idea that the jews killed christ and the nazis often repeated catholic teachings such as the blood libel.


Nazism was nothing if not a cult based on unreasonable beliefs and acted out by zealots.

"The national socialism of all of us is anchored in uncritical loyalty, in the surrender to the Fuhrer that does not ask for the why in individual cases, in the silent execution of his orders. We believe that the fuhrer is obeying a higher call to fashion German history. There can be no criticism of this belief" Rudolf Hess June 1934




The catholic church actively supported the holocaust in croatia with moral support and even funding.


While the church did take direct action to save around 750,000 jews in europe, they also stood by and watched six million more get slaughtered.

It's sort of hard to point to the church as a source of moral direction when they remain silent - by formal agreement with nazis - during the largest genocide in modern history:

The catholic church in germany handed over marriage and geneological records to the nazis all throughout the war to help determine who was or was not a jew.

Although informed of the massive Nazi attacks of synagogues and Jewish business in on Kristallnacht NOV 1938, Pope Pius XII issued no public criticism.

Although informed during 1940 to 1943 of Nazi atrocities in at least Austria, Lithuania, Poland, Spain, and the Ukraine, (including deportations to death camps) he made no public comments.

Pope Pius XII NEVER explicitly spoke out against Hitler. (Actually, this is in error. He did condemn Hitler in one speech to the College of Cardinals, one month after the war ended.)

He refused to join a resolution of the Allies condemning the Nazi crimes.

He never excommunicated any Nazi,although he did excommunicate some German Catholics who supported cremation as an alternative to burial.

He never declared it a sin for Catholics to participate in the slaughter.

In 1941 when asked about proposed anti-Jewish laws in Vichy France, Pius XII answered that the church condemned racism, but did not repudiate every rule against the Jews.


Of course, if you guys are okay with uncritical loyalty to belief...

I have not called any group evil, not have I used profanity on this thread. If I have, by all means, supply quotes.

Calling a religion "the largest threat to peace on the planet" IS biggoted.

I 100% stand by my statement

Bigotry is most often correlated with religion. Not that it has to be, but those that are religious are very often also susceptible to bigotry, especially because religion is used as a tool to control people and get power.

Today, and for the past 150 years or so, Islam has been carefully fine-tuned for bigotry. It has been almost completely destroyed by it.

Posted by MutantMandias Bigotry is most often correlated with religion. Not that it has to be, but those that are religious are very often also susceptible to bigotry

big·ot·ry   
[big-uh-tree] Show IPA
–noun, plural -ries.
1.
stubborn and complete intolerance of any creed, belief, or opinion that differs from one's own.
2.
the actions, beliefs, prejudices, etc., of a bigot.
See images of bigotry
Origin:
1665–75; bigot + -ry, formation parallel to French bigoterie

—Synonyms
1. narrow-mindedness, bias, discrimination.

I dont see any mention of it being exclusive to those that are religious....

Posted by MutantMandias Bigotry is most often correlated with religion. Not that it has to be, but those that are religious are very often also susceptible to bigotry, especially because religion is used as a tool to control people and get power. Today, and for the past 150 years or so, Islam has been carefully fine-tuned for bigotry. It has been almost completely destroyed by it.

Once again, very true.

However, this does make it right, it makes it "is". It certainly is not an excuse for his biggoted statements.

Saying an entire faith is a threat to peace on Earth? Seriously? How can anyone be expected to take a person seriously who says this?

Posted by maypost Calling a religion "the largest threat to peace on the planet" IS biggoted. I 100% stand by my statement

We are prevented from having an honest discussion about islam because any hint of the facts is immediatly construed as intolerance by well intentioned but ignorant people.

Islam is not like other religions, but it is is similar in that it is based on unreasonable ideas about the universe.

Can any of you point out where, exactly, members of al Qaeda, the Taliban, al-Shabab, Lashkar-e-Taiba, Hamas, and other Muslim terrorist groups have misconstrued their religious obligations?

The evidence stronlgly shows that they have acted exactly in accordance with the koran and the hadith.

Islam is a system of ideas and practices. And it is not a form of bigotry or racism to observe that the specific tenets of the faith pose a special threat to civil society.

I am sure there are many nice folks who happen to be muslims.

let me be clear on where I stand: I am skeptical of ANY extraordinary claims about the nature of the universe.

I propose that we would all be better off if we were all coversationally intolerant of unreasonable ideas in any form - but most especially ones that result in airplanes crashing into buildings.

Wow, just wow

Amazed, really I am.

I give up. Best of luck on you path of ignorance and biggotry. I'm sure it's going to work out great for you.

Maypost, signing out.