Posted by Soldat Tell you what I wouldn't do, murder people because a dude burned my book halfway across the Earth

Sigh. It's not just a book to them. Whatevs.

Posted by Soldat blow up a market full of people, or saw peoples heads of while they are still alive.

Hunh. Cuz I might, if I was fighting for my life and my family.

Posted by Soldat Also, btw, the Crusades were instigated by Muslim conquests of Christan lands in the Byzantine Empire. Just so you know.

And, just so you know, most of the current unpleasantness is a result of the fact that for the last 100 years, there have been Jewish conquests of what had been Muslim lands for centuries, and for the last 60 years, the U.S. has been the primary supporter of those conquests.

Posted by MutantMandias Sigh. It's not just a book to them. Whatevs.

Oh, I see, its special to them, so they get a pass on acting like civilized and rational people.

Posted by MutantMandias Hunh. Cuz I might, if I was fighting for my life and my family.

You are a pretty shitty human being

Posted by MutantMandias And, just so you know, most of the current unpleasantness is a result of the fact that for the last 100 years, there have been Jewish conquests of what had been Muslim lands for centuries, and for the last 60 years, the U.S. has been the primary supporter of those conquests.

Oh, the Israel thing. Thats right, because God forbid a Muslim has to live without of those dirty fucking jews.

I know plenty of the zionist movement of the late 1800s, proposed partition, the independence war, and every other war. What I say to that is that there was never a country of Palestine in all of history, and the simple fact is the Jews won that land. Arabs invaded to kick them out and they somehow won. Arabs kept invading them, and kept losing, fair and square. Sucks for them, I guess they have to learn to, oh idk, not be extremely anti-semitic and tolerate something other than Islam.

Most of the problems in the middle east seem to stem from the absolute refusal of the people living there to accept any other ideals or beliefs.

Posted by jeepdave Hmmmm, someone taking from me what is mine in theft, vs someone burning their own property, and suddenly thats reason enough to kill others? Do you know the difference between an apple and an orange? Must not. Ya say the Koran is to them what Jesus is to us, I disagree, I think mohammad is a closer comparison but for shits and giggles lets say they are the same. I don't recall Christians killin when the crucifix was put in a bottle of piss and called art. We said it was stupid and moved on. If this had not been a preacher, lets say it was an artist, and he had burned a Koran as a piece of "art" would we be having this discussion? Or would the rest of you be backing the "artist" for the mean old USA trying to censor him. Yeah, you know the artist community would be crying foul for even TALKING about the "art" not taking place. So a big fuck ya.

If it were an artist I'd hold them just as responsible for such an idiotic idea.

Au contraire, I do know the difference between an apple, an orange and a nut even, and I'm relatively certain about which one I'm dealing with here.

Posted by G to the Race The "preacher's'" act sparked the riots, true or false? If false he is not culpable; if true he is. It isn't difficult.

Invalid argument.

If someone calls me a cocksucker I'm not allowed to shoot him in the face and claim his insult sparked the incident. I'm certainly not allowed to shoot someone else and claim it's the guys that insulted mes fault. They would lock my ass up and call me a fucking hypersensitive sociopath. The guy that called me a nasty name would go home without incident.Because common sense dictates that a minor insult like that is not deserving of such a wildly misdirected blast of retribution.

Which brings us to burning books of fairy tales 1/2 a world away is no reason for any rational, sane person to kill anyone, much less people that didn't even know the person that did it. Anyone who would is an insane murderous sociopath looking for an excuse to feel empowered by committing a random act of violence.

It isn't difficult...

Posted by maypost Bottom line. We have no business in that part of the world. We can't even run our own country. So why are we even there in the first place trying to "fix" them when we are such a mess ourselves. If we were not there, none of this would even be happening.

Point of order-the topic of this thread didn't require our presence. The UN aid workers could have been ANY non-muslims that happened to be there unable to defend themselves. That is part of what makes this extra crazy. Burn a book, get random people killed 7500 miles away.

Please note that I do agree with your statement, I'm just not sure it's relevant to this particular incident.

Posted by Livingstone If it were an artist I'd hold them just as responsible for such an idiotic idea. Au contraire, I do know the difference between an apple, an orange and a nut even, and I'm relatively certain about which one I'm dealing with here.

Again, if you did, then you would understand the difference between theft and burning you own personal property. The only way to justify the actions of those people is to be racist? and act like they couldn't help it because they are inferior or don't have the ability to reason. So are you saying they are less than human? Which if you are can we wipe them out like any other nuisance species?

Posted by jeepdave Again, if you did, then you would understand the difference between theft and burning you own personal property. The only way to justify the actions of those people is to be racist? and act like they couldn't help it because they are inferior or don't have the ability to reason. So are you saying they are less than human? Which if you are can we wipe them out like any other nuisance species?

The Koran is not personal property. I don't expect someone with your condition to grasp what is obvious to most who have retained an inkling of their humanity. We disagree, we most likely always will.

Posted by Livingstone The Koran is not personal property. I don't expect someone with your condition to grasp what is obvious to most who have retained an inkling of their humanity. We disagree, we most likely always will.

Well, if your saying that something that someone owns is not their property, then yes we will never agree.

Posted by Livingstone Do you have any documented proof as to how often this practice is carried out in Muslim countries?

http://www.stuff.c...oved-in-punishment

http://www.youtube...atch?v=-BCOeh9FsOM

http://www.dailyma...s-bleed-death.html

http://webcache.go...rce=www.google.com

There's a couple off the first page of a two word Google search. Throw in some stonings...

http://www.khaleej...xml&section=theuae

some floggings...

http://www.aolnews...r-public-flogging/

There are the public beheadings
http://news.bbc.co...e_east/2966790.stm


and my personal fave...

click to view

Which is much better than the so far unproven alligations of killing gays by sealing the anus shut.


As for how often? No. The number of hits on the searches is kinda mind boggling. But as a guess most of these countries are doing a pretty fair job of out killing Texas death row if you count the extrajudicial killings.

Posted by Samurai both books are just as fucked... don't pick and choose. it's the same music, just different lyrics.

Thank you Sam.

Yes guys, you have managed to prove that both silly ass books are basically full of terrible things to do to people that don't follow the rules set forth by their respective invisible friends. Bravo.

They are just books.

Neither is worth dying for or over.

And killing over them is the hight of madness

Posted by underdark Thank you Sam. Yes guys, you have managed to prove that both silly ass books are basically full of terrible things to do to people that don't follow the rules set forth by their respective invisible friends. Bravo. They are just books. Neither is worth dying for or over. And killing over them is the hight of madness

You must understand, though, that the very same people who are being persecuted don't see them as just books. You know the proverb about walking a mile in someone else's shoes? Try out the beliefs you're talking about and then make a judgment.

Posted by HarvestmanMan You must understand, though, that the very same people who are being persecuted don't see them as just books. You know the proverb about walking a mile in someone else's shoes? Try out the beliefs you're talking about and then make a judgment.

I can't believe I am saying this, but I agree with you.

Posted by HarvestmanMan You must understand, though, that the very same people who are being persecuted don't see them as just books. You know the proverb about walking a mile in someone else's shoes? Try out the beliefs you're talking about and then make a judgment.

You all get deployed to Afghanistan and walk a mile in the shoes of somebody who is getting shot at and blown up every day.

It's easy to discount radical Islam from the safety of US shores where really, it is never going to touch you.

Posted by Soldat What I say to that is that there was never a country of Palestine in all of history, and the simple fact is the Jews won that land. Arabs invaded to kick them out and they somehow won. Arabs kept invading them, and kept losing, fair and square. Sucks for them, I guess they have to learn to, oh idk, not be extremely anti-semitic and tolerate something other than Islam.

I so love that argument. It is most excellent. If I move into your house, you should just accept it, fair and square? That land has been won over and over by different people at different times in history. Why should it be over now? No one else gets a chance anymore? Why, because you are alive to witness it at this point in time and declare it done? The "simple fact" is that other people still want it, and are still willing to kill for it, just like the Jews are. Yes, the Jews control it now and have defended it, but The U.S. funds Israel, and Israel subjugates Muslims. Could that possibly be a cause of some of the misgivings?

Posted by Soldat Most of the problems in the middle east seem to stem from the absolute refusal of the people living there to accept any other ideals or beliefs.

Yeah, it's just them. Obviously.

Posted by jeepdave Well, if your saying that something that someone owns is not their property, then yes we will never agree.

Okay. So, you own Christ, right? He is in you. You have accepted him. He is part of you. Therefore you own Christ and anyone who doesn't think exactly that way is an idiot and can't even understand simple reason.

Posted by HarvestmanMan You must understand, though, that the very same people who are being persecuted don't see them as just books. You know the proverb about walking a mile in someone else's shoes? Try out the beliefs you're talking about and then make a judgment.

i don't care what they see them as. I am telling you that I think that these faiths are fucked. And no, I don't want to walk a mile anywhere in anyone's shoes. Why the fuck would i 'try out someone's beliefs'? What? Am I buying a Buick?

yes, i like the seating surfaces in islam, but christianity has a better stereo...

it's a fucked up failure in the human brain that someone needs to believe in an invisible friend. muslims have taken it a tad further than christians, but what it comes down to is that both are willing to go to absurd lengths to a)prove their faith, b)spread their faith and c)defend perceived slights against their faith. When christians start blowing up cartoonists for witty representations of jesus and pals, well, you can say that your faith has gone that extra mile to loonytune land.

To a mind steeped in hatred, under the guise of multi-culturalism, it is VERY difficult.
Look at all the small minds in this thread having a REALLY hard time with it.

Posted by underdark Invalid argument. If someone calls me a cocksucker I'm not allowed to shoot him in the face and claim his insult sparked the incident. I'm certainly not allowed to shoot someone else and claim it's the guys that insulted mes fault. They would lock my ass up and call me a fucking hypersensitive sociopath. The guy that called me a nasty name would go home without incident.Because common sense dictates that a minor insult like that is not deserving of such a wildly misdirected blast of retribution. Which brings us to burning books of fairy tales 1/2 a world away is no reason for any rational, sane person to kill anyone, much less people that didn't even know the person that did it. Anyone who would is an insane murderous sociopath looking for an excuse to feel empowered by committing a random act of violence. It isn't difficult...

Posted by Soldat I know plenty of the zionist movement of the late 1800s, proposed partition, the independence war, and every other war. What I say to that is that there was never a country of Palestine in all of history, and the simple fact is the Jews won that land. Arabs invaded to kick them out and they somehow won. Arabs kept invading them, and kept losing, fair and square. Sucks for them, I guess they have to learn to, oh idk, not be extremely anti-semitic and tolerate something other than Islam.

So what was it called before 1948? How many of the Jews living there in 1948 were born there? The problem is the right-wing Jews regard it as the land promised to them in the Bible. Hell, even the fairly moderate Jews believe that. That's not a situation easily rectified.

Most of the problems in the middle east seem to stem from the absolute refusal of the people living there to accept any other ideals or beliefs.

I think that's true everywhere. Any time you have a group who believes that their philosophy (religious, political, etc.) is infallible - as in, there isn't even the possibility that it could be wrong - you have a recipe for disaster. Exceptionalist thinking, especially in the form of religious belief, is the great human poison.

Posted by underdark Invalid argument. If someone calls me a cocksucker I'm not allowed to shoot him in the face and claim his insult sparked the incident.

Shooting, no, but you'd probably be allowed to punch him. Provocation is often a valid defense.

Sadly - not in this country anymore.

Posted by splumer Shooting, no, but you'd probably be allowed to punch him. Provocation is often a valid defense.

How is this any different than what the Arabs are claiming?
It's a bug fat case of pot-kettle-black over there.

Posted by splumer The problem is the right-wing Jews regard it as the land promised to them in the Bible. Hell, even the fairly moderate Jews believe ... I think that's true everywhere. Any time you have a group who believes that their philosophy (religious, political, etc.) is infallible ...

Posted by Samurai i don't care what they see them as. I am telling you that I think that these faiths are fucked. And no, I don't want to walk a mile anywhere in anyone's shoes. Why the fuck would i 'try out someone's beliefs'? What? Am I buying a Buick?

My question for you is this:
How in the hell do you expect to understand what they believe in if you aren't willing to have anything to do with their faith?

If you aren't willing to try and understand people's beliefs (by participating in them) before criticizing them, then there's something seriously flawed with your reasoning. Religion isn't a math problem that you can figure out simply by looking at it; only when you participate in it can you fully understand what it's about.