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UER Forum > Private Boards Index > Religious Discussion > I'm Christian, unless you're gay (Viewed 11592 times)
.Kyle 


Location: Guelph/Burlington, Ontario
Gender: Male
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I'm Christian, unless you're gay
< on 4/3/2012 9:59 PM >
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This popped up on facebook today and I thought it was a pretty interesting read that made some good points, shame Dave isn't here anymore to try and argue them.
http://www.danoah....ess-youre-gay.html

Today I want to write about something that has bothered me for the better part of a decade. I’ve carved out no fewer than a dozen drafts of this post, all strangely unalike, all ultimately failing to accomplish the job I’ve set out to do. Truth is, I’ve been trying to write it off and on for more than a year now, and the right words have been seemingly impossible to come by.

In the end, and in order to post it, I guess I had to care more about the message than I do about potential backlash. I’m not being facetious when I say that I hope I can get this message across without offending… well… everybody.

What I really hope is that this post will spark and encourage poignant and worthwhile discussion that will lead to some poignant and worthwhile changes in the lives of at least a few people who are hurting.

That being said, I believe some strong words need to be said today.

“God hates fags.” We’ve all seen the signs being waved high in the air by members of the Westboro Baptist church. On TV. In real life. It’s hard not to take notice.

Over the years, I’ve watched seemingly never-ending disgustingness and hatred spill across the media airwaves from those who belong to the organization. For those who don’t know much about that “church,” they have made a seedy name for themselves by doing drastic things like picketing beneath atrocious signs and hosting flagrant anti-gay protests at military funerals.

Almost every person of nearly every religion has no problem loathing and condemning the Westboro Baptist Church and its members, and perhaps with reason. They take freedom of speech far beyond what our founding fathers intended when they fought to give us that right, and they laugh at the rest of the world while they do.

But today I don’t want to talk about those idiots. I want to talk about you. And me.

And my friend who I’ll call Jacob.

Jacob is 27 years old, and guess what… he’s gay.

Not a lot of people know. He lives in a community where being gay is still very “frowned upon.”

I was talking to him on the phone a few weeks ago, telling him about my failed attempts to write this post. He was trying to hold his emotions in, but he eventually became tearful as we deliberated the very problem that this post attempts to discuss.

Before I go on, I feel I must say something one time. Today’s post is not about homosexuality. It’s not about Christians. It’s not about religion. It’s not about politics. It’s about something else altogether. Something greater. Something simpler.

It’s about love.

It’s about kindness.

It’s about friendship

And love, kindness, and friendship are three things that Jacob hasn’t felt in a long time.

I’m thankful he gave me permission to share our conversation with you. It went something like this.

“Jacob, I honestly don’t know how to write it,” I said. “I know what I want to get across, but I can never find the right words.”

“Dan, you need to write it. Don’t give up. I’m telling you, it needs to be said.”

I paused. “You don’t understand. It’s too heated a subject. It’s something people are very emotional and touchy about. I’d be lynched.”

My friend hesitated. “Dan, you are the only friend I have that knows I’m gay. The only freaking one,” he said.

“What do you mean? I know you’ve told other friends.”

That’s when his voice cracked. He began crying.

“Every single person I’ve told has ditched me. They just disappear. They stop calling. They remove me on Facebook. They’re just gone,” he said. “They can’t handle knowing and being friends with a gay person.”

I didn’t know what to say. So I didn’t say anything.

“You don’t know what it’s like, man. You don’t know what it’s like to live here and be gay. You don’t know what it’s like to have freaking nobody. You don’t know what it’s like to have your own parents hate you and try and cover up your existence. I didn’t choose this. I didn’t want this. And I’m so tired of people hating me for it. I can’t take it anymore. I just can’t.”

How do you respond to that?

I wanted to tell him it was all in his head. I knew it wasn’t. I wanted to tell him it would get better and easier. The words would have been hollow and without conviction, and I knew it.

You see, I live in this community too. And I’ve heard the hate. I’ve heard the disgust. I’ve heard the disdain. I’ve heard the gossip. I’ve heard the distrust. I’ve heard the anger. I’ve heard it all, and I’ve heard it tucked and disguised neatly beneath a wrapper of self-righteousness and a blanket of “caring” or “religious” words. I’ve heard it more times than I care to number.

About gay people.

About people who dress differently.

About people who act differently.

About fat people.

About people with drug addictions.

About people who smoke.

About people with addictions to alcohol.

About people with eating disorders.

About people who fall away from their faiths.

About people who aren’t members of the dominant local religion.

About people who have non-traditional piercings.

About people who just look at you or me the wrong way.

I’ve heard it, and I’ve heard it over, and over, and over again.

Hell, in the past (and to some degree in the present) I participated in it. I propagated it. I smugly took part in it. I’ll admit that.

And I did so under the blanketing term “Christian.” I did so believing that my actions were somehow justified because of my beliefs at the time. I did so, actually believing that such appointments were done out of… love.

This isn’t just a Utah phenomenon. I’ve lived outside of this place. I’ve worked outside of this place. It was just as bad in Denver. It was just as bad in California. I see it on blogs. I hear it on television shows and radio programs. I hear it around my own family’s dinner table from time to time. Usually said so passively, so sneakily, and so “righteously.”

From Christians.

From Buddhists.

From Hindus.

From Muslims.

From Jews.

“God hates fags.” “God hates addicts.” “God hates people who shop at Salvation Army.” “God hates people that aren’t just like me.”

People may not be holding up picket signs and marching around in front of television cameras but… come on. Why is it that so many incredible people who have certain struggles, problems, or their own beliefs of what is right and wrong feel so hated? Why do they feel so judged? Why do they feel so… loathed? What undeniable truth must we all eventually admit to ourselves when such is the case?

Now, I’m not religious. I’m also not gay. But I’ll tell you right now that I’ve sought out religion. I’ve looked for what I believe truth to be. For years I studied, trying to find “it”. Every major religion had good selling points. Every major religion, if I rewound far enough, had some pretty incredible base teachings from some pretty incredible individuals.

Check this out, and feel free to correct me if I get this wrong…

According to Christians, Jesus taught a couple of interesting things. First, “love one another.” Second, “He that is without sin among you, let him first cast a stone at her.” (“Her” being a woman who cheated on her man.)

According to Buddhists, Buddha taught a couple of thought-provoking things. First, “Hatred does not cease by hatred, but only by love; this is the eternal rule.” Second, “Holding on to anger is like grasping a hot coal with the intent of throwing it at someone else; you are the one who gets burned.”

According to Hindus, a couple of fascinating teachings come to mind. First, “Do not get angry or harm any living creature, but be compassionate and gentle; show good will to all.” (Krishna) Second, “Love means giving selflessly, excluding none and including all.” (Rama)

According to Muslims, Muhammad taught a couple interesting things as well. First, “A true Muslim is the one who does not defame or abuse others; but the truly righteous becomes a refuge for humankind, their lives and their properties.” Second, “Do you love your creator? Love your fellow-beings first.”

According to Judaism, their scriptures teach a couple remarkable things. First, “Love your neighbor like yourself.” Second, “Examine the contents, not the bottle.”

The greatest spiritual leaders in history have all preached love for others as the basis for all happiness, and never did they accompany such mandates with a list of unlovable actions or deeds. They never said, love everybody except for the gays. Love everybody except for the homeless. Love everybody except for the drug users. Love everybody except for the gang members, or those covered in ink, or the spouse abusers. They didn’t tell us it was okay to love everybody with the exception of the “trailer trash,” those living in poverty, or the illegal immigrants. They didn’t tell us it was okay to love everybody except for our ex-lovers, our lovers’ ex lovers, or our ex-lovers’ lovers. The mandate was pretty damn clear, wasn’t it?

Love others.

Period.

So if this is the founding directive of all the major religions… why is it that sometimes the most “Christlike” people are they who have no religion at all?

Let me repeat that.

Why is it that sometimes the most Christlike people are they who have no religion at all?

I have known a lot of people in my life, and I can tell you this… Some of the ones who understood love better than anyone else were those who the rest of the world had long before measured as lost or gone. Some of the people who were able to look at the dirtiest, the poorest, the gays, the straights, the drug users, those in recovery, the basest of sinners, and those who were just… plain… different…

They were able to look at them all and only see strength. Beauty. Potential. Hope.

And if we boil it down, isn’t that what love actually is?

Don’t get me wrong. I know a lot of incredible Christians, too. I know some incredible Buddhists and Muslims and Hindus and Jews. I know a lot of amazing people, devout in their various religions, who truly love the people around them.

I also know some atheist, agnostic, or religionless people who are absolutely hateful of believers. They loathe their religious counterparts. They love only those who believe (or don’t believe) the same things they do.

In truth, having a religion doesn’t make a person love or not love others. It doesn’t make a person accept or not accept others. It doesn’t make a person befriend or not befriend others.

Being without a religion doesn’t make somebody do or be any of that either.

No, what makes somebody love, accept, and befriend their fellow man is letting go of a need to be better than others.

Nothing else.

I know there are many here who believe that living a homosexual life is a sin.

Okay.

But, what does that have to do with love?

I repeat… what does that have to do with love?

Come on. Don’t we understand? Don’t we get it? To put our arm around someone who is gay, someone who has an addiction, somebody who lives a different lifestyle, someone who is not what we think they should be… doing that has nothing to do with enabling them or accepting what they do as okay by us. It has nothing to do with encouraging them in their practice of what you or I might feel or believe is wrong vs right.

It has everything to do with being a good human being. A good person. A good friend.

That’s all.

To put our arm around somebody who is different. Why is that so hard?

I’m not here to say homosexuality is a sin or isn’t a sin. To be honest, I don’t give a rip. I don’t care. I’m not here to debate whether or not it’s natural or genetic. Again, I… don’t… care. Those debates hold no encumbrance for me.

What I care about is the need so many of us have to shun and loathe others. The need so many of us have to feel better or superior to others. The need some of us have to declare ourselves right and “perfect” all the freaking time and any chance we have.

And for some of us, these are very real needs.

But I will tell you this. All it really is… All any of it really is… is bullying.

Sneaky, hurtful, duplicitous, bullying.

Well, guess what.

There are things we all do or believe that other people consider “sinful.” There are things we all do or believe that other people consider “wrong.” There are things we all do or believe that other people would be disgusted or angered by.


“Yes, but I have the truth!” most people will adamantly declare.

Okay.

Whether you do or not…

I promise you it doesn’t matter what you believe, how strongly you live your beliefs, or how true your beliefs are. Somebody else, somewhere, thinks you are in the wrong. Somebody else, somewhere, thinks your beliefs are senseless or illogical. Somebody else, somewhere, thinks you have it all wrong. In fact, there are a lot of people in this world who do.

We each understand that. We already know that. It’s the world we live in and we’re not naïve. We’re not stupid. We get it.

Yet, we expect and want love anyway. We expect and want understanding. We expect and want tolerance. We expect and want humanity. We expect and want respect for our beliefs, even from those who don’t believe the same things we do. Even from those who think we’re wrong, unwise, or incorrect.

We expect all of that from the people who disagree with us and who disagree with our lifestyles and beliefs because, let’s be honest, nothing we do is actually bad enough to be worthy of disgust, anger, hatred, or cold-shouldering. Right? None of the ways in which we live our lives would warrant such behavior. Right? None of our beliefs are worthy of ugly disdain from others.

Right?

No, we’re all… perfect. Freaking, amazingly, impossibly… perfect.

But the gays… well, shoot.

[sigh]

You know what I think?

Let this sink in for a minute…

I think it doesn’t matter if you or I or anybody else thinks homosexuality is a sin. It doesn’t matter if you or I think anything is a sin. It doesn’t matter if homosexuality is a sin or not. In fact, it doesn’t matter if anything anybody else does is a sin or not.

Because sin is a very personal thing! It always has been and it always will be!

And it has nothing to do with love.

Absolutely nothing.

Disparity and difference have nothing to do with love.

We shouldn’t choose who we will love and who we won’t.

“I’m Christian, unless you’re gay.”

That’s the message we’re sending, you know.

“I’m Christian, unless I’m hotter than you.”

“I’m Christian, unless I’m uglier than you.”

“I’m Christian, unless I found out you cheated on your income taxes.”

“I’m Christian, unless you cut me off in traffic.”

“I’m Christian, unless you fall in love with the person I once fell in love with.”

“I’m Christian, unless you’re that guy who smells like crap on the subway.”

“I’m Christian, unless you’re of a different religion.”

“Oh, but you’re not gay? You’re clean, and well dressed, and you have a job? You look the way I think you should look? You act the way I think you should act? You believe the things I think you should believe? Then I’m definitely a Christian. To you, today, I’m a Christian. You’ve earned it.”

I bet you’ve heard that message coming from others. Maybe you’ve given that message to others.

Either way, I hope we all can agree that we mustn’t live that message. We just shouldn’t.

But many of us do.

And we do it all the time.

For some of us, it might as well be tattooed across our necks and foreheads.

Maybe not in those words, but the message is clear to those who hear and are listening. It’s clear to those who are watching and seeing.

The message has been very clear to my friend Jacob.

“Every single person I’ve told has ditched me. They just disappear. They stop calling. They remove me on Facebook. They’re just gone. They can’t handle knowing and being friends with a gay person.”

“You don’t know what it’s like, man. You don’t know what it’s like to live here and be gay. You don’t know what it’s like to have freaking nobody. You don’t know what it’s like to have your own parents hate you and try and cover up your existence. I didn’t choose this. I didn’t want this. And I’m so tired of people hating me for it. I can’t take it anymore. I just can’t.”

Jacob is a dear friend. He’s my brother. He’s a damn good human being. He’s absolutely incredible.

He’s also gay.

But why does that make any difference at all?

It doesn’t. Not to me.

And I wish with everything inside of me that it didn’t make any difference to others. I wish we didn’t all have to find ways that we’re better than others or more holy and saintly than others in order to feel better about our own messy selves. I wish people wouldn’t cluster entire groups of people together and declare the whole lot unworthy of any love and respect.

But that is the point of such thinking and action, isn’t it? I mean, it’s simpler that way. It makes it easier for us to justify our thoughts, words, and prejudices that way.

All these people become clumped together. And in the process, they all somehow become less than human.

They become unworthy of our love.

And what a great thing it is when that happens, right? I mean, it helps us to free ourselves from the very directives that have been passed down for millennia from the greatest teachers and philosophers in history. It makes our rationalization for hatred, bigotry, and abhorrence so easily justifiable; so maskable.

So right.

It gives us the golden chance to look at ourselves and not be disgusted by what the glass reflects back at us.

Then, sadly and ultimately, it pushes us to that point where we no longer have any sort of arm to put around others at all. We no longer have a hand to offer our fellow human beings. We no longer have a need to.

And why would we?

Why the hell should we?

Unless, of course, we actually want to live what we all so often claim that we “believe.”

My dear friends…

This has to stop. We have to put our ugly picket signs down. We have to be the examples that help make it happen in our own lives and in the lives of the people that surround us.

We have to be that voice. We each must be that voice.

We must tell others that we will not accept or listen to such hurtful and hateful sentiments.

We must show love where love right now doesn’t exist.

Will you please join me?

My request today is simple. Today. Tomorrow. Next week. Find somebody, anybody, that’s different than you. Somebody that has made you feel ill-will or even [gulp...] hateful. Somebody whose life decisions have made you uncomfortable. Somebody who practices a different religion than you do. Somebody who has been lost to addiction. Somebody with a criminal past. Somebody who dresses “below” you. Somebody with disabilities. Somebody who lives an alternative lifestyle. Somebody without a home.

Somebody that you, until now, would always avoid, always look down on, and always be disgusted by.

Reach your arm out and put it around them.

And then, tell them they’re all right. Tell them they have a friend. Tell them you love them.

If you or I wanna make a change in this world, that’s where we’re gonna be able to do it. That’s where we’ll start.

Every. Single. Time.

Because what you’ll find, and I promise you this, is that the more you put your arm around those that you might naturally look down on, the more you will love yourself. And the more you love yourself, the less need you’ll ever have to find fault or be better than others. And the less we all find fault or have a need to be better than others, the quicker this world becomes a far better place to live.

And don’t we all want to live in a better world? Don’t we all want our kids to grow up in a better, less hateful, more beautiful world?

I know I do.

So let’s be that voice. Let’s offer that arm to others. Because, the honest truth is… there’s gonna come a day when you or I are going to need that same courtesy. There’s going to come a day that we are desperate for that same arm to be put around us. We’ll be desperate for that same friendship. We’ll be desperate for that same love.

Life will make sure of it. For you. For me. For everyone.

It always does because… as it turns out… there’s not a damn person on earth who’s perfect.




Tralalalalalalala
splumer 


Location: Cleveland, Ohio
Gender: Male
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Re: I'm Christian, unless you're gay
< Reply # 1 on 4/5/2012 2:20 PM >
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Posted on Forum: UER Forum
I didn't read the whole thing, but what I read was very nice. My sister-in-law, who is very religious and has several gay friends, says, essentially, that God made them gay, so who are we to judge them?




“We are not going to have the kind of cooperation we need if everyone insists on their own narrow version of reality. … the great divide in the world today … is between people who have the courage to listen and those who are convinced that they already know it all.”

-Madeline Albright
MrGreenJeans 

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Re: I'm Christian, unless you're gay
< Reply # 2 on 4/7/2012 2:34 AM >
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God tells his servants to judge them. God didn't make them gay, their gayness is part of "original sin". Like crippled kids. If it weren't for the sins or Adam and Eve there would be no sickness, including the mental illness of sexual perversions, including gayness.

If you're a Christian then you don't support gays. It's the whole "love the sinner, hate the sin" thing. If a sinner willfully sins, like plowing another dude in the ass, then they reject Christ. True Christians do not support, or accept, willful sinners ... but must spread the light of Christ to sinners who don't know any better. If they refuse to repent they should be stoned to death in the town square. It's in the bible, the word of God and the guide of all true Christians.




MutantMandias 

Perverse and Often Baffling


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Re: I'm Christian, unless you're gay
< Reply # 3 on 4/7/2012 5:58 AM >
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Okay, that's settled then.




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Samurai 

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Re: I'm Christian, unless you're gay
< Reply # 4 on 4/7/2012 11:15 AM >
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Posted on Forum: UER Forum
Posted by MrGreenJeans

If you're a Christian then you don't support gays. It's the whole "love the sinner, hate the sin" thing. If a sinner willfully sins, like plowing another dude in the ass, then they reject Christ. True Christians do not support, or accept, willful sinners ... but must spread the light of Christ to sinners who don't know any better. If they refuse to repent they should be stoned to death in the town square. It's in the bible, the word of God and the guide of all true Christians.


is that what you think being gay is all about? shitter fucking someone?
is there no limit to your ignorance?





Arch-Image 


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Re: I'm Christian, unless you're gay
< Reply # 5 on 4/8/2012 2:08 PM >
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Posted on Forum: UER Forum
Posted by MrGreenJeans
God tells his servants to judge them. God didn't make them gay, their gayness is part of "original sin". Like crippled kids. If it weren't for the sins or Adam and Eve there would be no sickness, including the mental illness of sexual perversions, including gayness.

If you're a Christian then you don't support gays. It's the whole "love the sinner, hate the sin" thing. If a sinner willfully sins, like plowing another dude in the ass, then they reject Christ. True Christians do not support, or accept, willful sinners ... but must spread the light of Christ to sinners who don't know any better. If they refuse to repent they should be stoned to death in the town square. It's in the bible, the word of God and the guide of all true Christians.


So if being gay is like "crippled kids", caused from original sin, does that mean they are living in willful sin also?

As for the second part, so it explain why the "Christians" don't have any issue with the divorce. (50% percent of first marriages, 67% of second and 74% of third marriages) According to the bible the only reason for divorce is adultery yet, the huge majority of divorce is what I call to-mate-o, to-mah-toe reasons, so they would all be living in "willful" sin also. I wont ask if your divorced or not. Also, how about all those fornicators out there, 40% currently according to a recent study published in the Washington post. Obviously they are "pounding each other" like crazy. Christians continue to use idiot interpretations of the Bible to indiscriminate and hate on people today just as they have for centuries. D you toss them all out of the "church" also, or just "stone them to death"?

The best line I have heard in ages ..... ”Spirituality is for those seeking understanding. Religion is for those seeking reward.”




"Your kid may be an honor student but YOU'RE still an IDIOT!"
splumer 


Location: Cleveland, Ohio
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Re: I'm Christian, unless you're gay
< Reply # 6 on 4/9/2012 1:11 PM >
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Posted by MrGreenJeans
God tells his servants to judge them. God didn't make them gay, their gayness is part of "original sin". Like crippled kids. If it weren't for the sins or Adam and Eve there would be no sickness, including the mental illness of sexual perversions, including gayness.

If you're a Christian then you don't support gays. It's the whole "love the sinner, hate the sin" thing. If a sinner willfully sins, like plowing another dude in the ass, then they reject Christ. True Christians do not support, or accept, willful sinners ... but must spread the light of Christ to sinners who don't know any better. If they refuse to repent they should be stoned to death in the town square. It's in the bible, the word of God and the guide of all true Christians.


I think you're mixing the state of being with the activity. Being gay is more than having sex with the same gender. One could be gay and be celibate, just like one could be hetero and not have sex. (I'm married, so I have plenty of experience with the latter. ) Also, you can have homo sex and not be gay.

I think that's what my SIL's point is: the behavior is what is sinful, not the state of being. And doesn't everyone willfully sin? Isn't that the point of forgiveness?




“We are not going to have the kind of cooperation we need if everyone insists on their own narrow version of reality. … the great divide in the world today … is between people who have the courage to listen and those who are convinced that they already know it all.”

-Madeline Albright
MrGreenJeans 

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Re: I'm Christian, unless you're gay
< Reply # 7 on 4/9/2012 2:37 PM >
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Interesting discussion splumer. Again, I never claim to be a Christian, merely to explain Christianity. The vast majority of Christians are non-practicing, it's simply something they fill out on a medical form and maybe go to church once a year to feel warm and fuzzy inside.

If you're a homo and decide not to act on the inclination then I would say you are repentant of your unnatural desires. Just as if someone finds children sexy but never actually has sex with one ... or a sheep, or a corpse or any other unnatural "alternative lifestyle" choices.

I would disagree on the last point, if you enjoy gay sex then you are an unrepentant homo. Forgiveness can only be for those who recognize that they need it, not for those willfully sinning who do not even see it as a sin, though they have knowledge that God's word disagrees.

If you're going to be a Christian then read your bible and be a Christian. Don't be a hypocritical Christmas Christian. Christians may not be able to stone sinner anymore but it doesn't mean they must accept them in their own heart simply because a secular anti-Christian government commands them to.




Lexi 


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I'm getting old.

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Re: I'm Christian, unless you're gay
< Reply # 8 on 4/9/2012 2:50 PM >
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Posted by MrGreenJeans
God tells his servants to judge them. God didn't make them gay, their gayness is part of "original sin". Like crippled kids. If it weren't for the sins or Adam and Eve there would be no sickness, including the mental illness of sexual perversions, including gayness.

If you're a Christian then you don't support gays. It's the whole "love the sinner, hate the sin" thing. If a sinner willfully sins, like plowing another dude in the ass, then they reject Christ. True Christians do not support, or accept, willful sinners ... but must spread the light of Christ to sinners who don't know any better. If they refuse to repent they should be stoned to death in the town square. It's in the bible, the word of God and the guide of all true Christians.


For someone who claims to be a non-Christian you sure sound pretty preachy.

And by preachy, I mean you sound like a hate-filled bigot.




[15:00:33] <SeeThirty> cause you're not likely to be anywhere that other people haven't been who didn't have protection
[15:00:41] <SeeThirty> still better safe than lexi
MutantMandias 

Perverse and Often Baffling


Location: Atlanta, GA
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Are you a reporter? Contact me for a UE interview! Also not averse to the the idea of group/anal.

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Re: I'm Christian, unless you're gay
< Reply # 9 on 4/9/2012 2:59 PM >
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Like I said earlier, I think it is now crystal clear what we are dealing with here, so I don't see much point in continuing the "conversation."




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splumer 


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Re: I'm Christian, unless you're gay
< Reply # 10 on 4/9/2012 3:37 PM >
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Posted by MrGreenJeans

If you're a homo and decide not to act on the inclination then I would say you are repentant of your unnatural desires. Just as if someone finds children sexy but never actually has sex with one ... or a sheep, or a corpse or any other unnatural "alternative lifestyle" choices.


Sam needs to help me on this one, but I don't think being gay is solely about shagging, just as much as being hetero isn't solely about shagging. Even the best Christian has sinful desires (or behaviors) occasionally. Forgiveness and absolution is supposed to cleanse you of those. Catholics codify that a little more with actual confession.


I would disagree on the last point, if you enjoy gay sex then you are an unrepentant homo. Forgiveness can only be for those who recognize that they need it, not for those willfully sinning who do not even see it as a sin, though they have knowledge that God's word disagrees.


If you're doing it regularly, then yeah, you're probably gay, but doing it once or twice doesn't make you gay. I would say (again Sam, correct me if I'm wrong) that it's more about self-identifcation than behavior, but whether you conform to a particular label I'd say isn't important.


If you're going to be a Christian then read your bible and be a Christian. Don't be a hypocritical Christmas Christian. Christians may not be able to stone sinner anymore but it doesn't mean they must accept them in their own heart simply because a secular anti-Christian government commands them to.


I disagree that the gov't is anti-Christian, but that's a discussion for the politics forum. Also, I think being a Christian requires a belief in the philosophy in general, not following every single precept in the Bible (except for the one you find distasteful or antiquated). So, someone who only goes on Xmas eve is still a Christian in my book. Maybe not as devout as someone who goes every Sunday, but I think it's a personal thing, so who am I to criticize? I wouldn't call someone not a true Democrat because you think the individual mandate for health insurance is unconstitutional, but support the Dems in every other respect.

So, to summarize my position, you can self-identify as gay, but as long as you don't lie with a man as with a woman, I'd say that makes you OK. So does that mean you have to do it standing up?

This brings me back to a point that has been raised here many times before, and never adequately answered: how does one decide which parts of the OT to obey, and which to discard? Why follow Lev. 18 but not 19?



[last edit 4/9/2012 3:37 PM by splumer - edited 1 times]

“We are not going to have the kind of cooperation we need if everyone insists on their own narrow version of reality. … the great divide in the world today … is between people who have the courage to listen and those who are convinced that they already know it all.”

-Madeline Albright
Samurai 

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Re: I'm Christian, unless you're gay
< Reply # 11 on 4/9/2012 6:39 PM >
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i'm done with this thread. all of the rest of you can have and have had decent and polite discussions about homosexuality in the past and I am incredibly grateful for that. But this motherfucker right here, this mrgreenjeans asshole has gone too far.
he's a bigoted, ignorant fuck with the world view of an arkansas trailer park resident and I want nothing more to do with him.



[last edit 4/9/2012 6:40 PM by Samurai - edited 1 times]

Esoterik 


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Re: I'm Christian, unless you're gay
< Reply # 12 on 4/9/2012 6:50 PM >
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Greenjeans is trolling hard. Just wow.




“You've got to remember that these are just simple farmers. These are people of the land. The common clay of the new West. You know... morons.”
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No matter where you go, there you are...

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Re: I'm Christian, unless you're gay
< Reply # 13 on 4/9/2012 7:00 PM >
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Posted by Esoterik
Greenjeans is trolling hard. Just wow.


i'm incredibly hard to offend.




MrGreenJeans 

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Re: I'm Christian, unless you're gay
< Reply # 14 on 4/9/2012 9:45 PM >
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Posted by Samurai
i'm done with this thread. all of the rest of you can have and have had decent and polite discussions about homosexuality in the past and I am incredibly grateful for that. But this motherfucker right here, this mrgreenjeans asshole has gone too far.
he's a bigoted, ignorant fuck with the world view of an arkansas trailer park resident and I want nothing more to do with him.


I can feel the homo charged anti-southern bigotry. Why do you hate people from Arkansas? What's wrong with people who live in trailer parks? A little bit of a hate filled stereotype if you ask me. I'm sure there are a couple of queers in some Arkansas trailer doing it (standing up so as not to offend the almighty) right now. You know you want me sam, admit it.

It's funny, if you ask a queer the only decent and polite discussion you can possibly have is one in which you accept homosexuality. Pardon me if I don't wish mental illness on anyone and refuse to simply accept it as a legitimate lifestyle.

splumer, can you be a Christian and not believe in the teachings of Christ? What is the general philosophy of Christianity, if it isn't really the teaching of Christ Jesus and his father, the almighty?

We'll have to agree to disagree on just how anti-Christian the government is, you're right in that it's more of a political discussion than religious. The laws of Leviticus were a covenant between Moses, the jewish people and God, while Jesus Christ initiated a new covenant between everyone and God. Homosexuality is condemned in both the old and new testaments.




Samurai 

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Re: I'm Christian, unless you're gay
< Reply # 15 on 4/9/2012 11:53 PM >
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Posted by MrGreenJeans
Homosexuality is condemned in both the old and new testaments.


its too bad stupidity isn't condemned.
from what I have seen, it's encouraged.




tekriter 


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Calling Atheism a religion is like calling bald a hair color.

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Re: I'm Christian, unless you're gay
< Reply # 16 on 4/9/2012 11:55 PM >
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The bible does seem to condemn homosexuality among man, but girl on girl is not mentioned at all. Giggity.

The bible also condemns the following:

1. Round haircuts or clipping beards. (shaving is thus prohibited)
2. Pig flesh - and therefore football, bacon, and pork chops.
3. Fortune tellers.
4. Coitus inturuptus. (but fucking your brother's wife is okay)
5. Tattoos.
6. Hybrid cattle, crops or blended fabrics.
7. Divorce.
8. Letting people with missing cock or balls pray - even if it was an accident.(no bastards either)
9. Women that wear gold, pearls or expensive clothes.
10. Eating shellfish (and camel, rock badger, rabbit, eagle, vulture, buzzard, falcon, raven, crow, ostrich, owl, seagull, hawk, pelican, stork, heron, bat, winged insects that walk on four legs unless they have joints to jump with like grasshoppers, bear, mole, mouse, lizard, gecko, crocodile, chameleon and snails - DOES NOT FORBID EATING PUSSY!)
11. Women speaking in church.
12. Working on the sabbath.
13. Disobeying your master if you are a slave.


You can't pick and choose. Either the bible is right or it is not. Got a beard? Tattoos? Wearing polyester? Get up against the side of the trailer with the homos - it's your turn to get stoned to death.



[last edit 4/9/2012 11:57 PM by tekriter - edited 1 times]

It is a truism that almost any sect, cult, or religion will legislate its creed into law if it acquires the political power to do so, and will follow it by suppressing opposition, subverting all education to seize early the minds of the young, and by killing, locking up, or driving underground all heretics. Robert A. Heinlen
Samurai 

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Re: I'm Christian, unless you're gay
< Reply # 17 on 4/10/2012 11:19 AM >
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i read this and immediately thought of your friendly neighborhood bigot, mrgreenjeans.



By: Jeanna Bryner, LiveScience Managing Editor
Published: 04/09/2012 01:01 PM EDT on LiveScience

Homophobics should consider a little self-reflection, suggests a new study finding those individuals who are most hostile toward gays and hold strong anti-gay views may themselves have same-sex desires, albeit undercover ones.

The prejudice of homophobia may also stem from authoritarian parents, particularly those with homophobic views as well, the researchers added.

"This study shows that if you are feeling that kind of visceral reaction to an out-group, ask yourself, 'Why?'" co-author Richard Ryan, a professor of psychology at the University of Rochester, said in a statement. "Those intense emotions should serve as a call to self-reflection."

The research, published in the April 2012 issue of the Journal of Personality and Social Psychology, reveals the nuances of prejudices like homophobia, which can ultimately have dire consequences. [The 10 Most Destructive Human Behaviors]

"Sometimes people are threatened by gays and lesbians because they are fearing their own impulses, in a sense they 'doth protest too much,'" Ryan told LiveScience. "In addition, it appears that sometimes those who would oppress others have been oppressed themselves, and we can have some compassion for them too, they may be unaccepting of others because they cannot be accepting of themselves."

Ryan cautioned, however, that this link is only one source of anti-gay sentiments.

Hidden homosexuality

In four studies, the researchers looked at the discrepancies between what people say about their sexual orientation and their implicit sexual orientation based on a reaction-time test. The studies involved college students from Germany and the United States.

For the implicit measure, students had to categorize words and pictures flashed onto a computer screen into "gay" or "straight" groups. Words included "gay," "straight," "homosexual" and "heterosexual," while the pictures showed straight and gay couples. Before each trial, participants were primed with the word "me" or "others" flashed momentarily onto a computer screen. The researchers said quicker reaction time for "me" and "gay," and a slower association of "me" with "straight" would indicate said an implicit gay orientation. [Why Gay Parents May Be the Best Parents]

In another experiment, the researchers measured implicit sexual orientation by having participants choose to browse same-sex or opposite-sex photos on a computer screen.

Questionnaires also teased out the parenting style the participants were exposed to, with students asked how much they agreed or disagreed with statements such as: "I felt controlled and pressured in certain ways;" and "I felt free to be who I am." To gauge homophobia in a household, students responded to items such as, "It would be upsetting for my mom to find out she was alone with a lesbian" or "My dad avoids gay men whenever possible."

Participants indicated their own level of homophobia, both overt and implicit; in word-completion tasks, students wrote down the first three words that came to mind when prompted with some of the words' letters. Students were primed at some point with the word "gay" to see how that impacted the amount of aggressive words used.

Controlling parents

In all of the studies, participants who reported supportive and accepting parents were more in touch with their implicit sexual orientation, meaning it tended to jibe with their outward sexual orientation. Students who indicated they came from authoritarian homes showed the biggest discrepancy between the two measures of sexual orientation.

"In a predominately heterosexual society, 'know thyself' can be a challenge for many gay individuals," lead author Netta Weinstein, a lecturer at the University of Essex in the United Kingdom,said in a statement. "But in controlling and homophobic homes, embracing a minority sexual orientation can be terrifying."[5 Ways to Foster Self-Compassion in Your Child]

Those participants who reported their heterosexuality despite having hidden same-sex desires were also the most likely to show hostility toward gay individuals, including self-reported anti-gay attitudes, endorsement of anti-gay policies and discrimination such as supporting harsher punishments for homosexuals.

The research may help to explain the underpinnings of anti-gay bullying and hate crimes, the researchers note. People in denial about their own sexual orientation, perhaps a denial fostered by authoritarian and homophobic parents, may feel a threat from other gay and lesbian individuals. Lashing out may ultimately be an indicator of the person's own internal conflict with sexual orientation.

This inner conflict can be seen in some high-profile cases in which anti-gay public figures are caught engaging in same-sex acts, the researchers say. For instance, evangelical preacher and anti-gay-marriage advocate Ted Haggard was caught in a gay sex scandal in 2006. And in 2010, prominent anti-gay activist and co-founder of conservative Family Research Council George Rekers was reportedly spotted in 2010 with a male escort rented from Rentboy.com. According to news reports, the escort confirmed Rekers is gay.

"We laugh at or make fun of such blatant hypocrisy, but in a real way, these people may often themselves be victims of repression and experience exaggerated feelings of threat," Ryan said. "Homophobia is not a laughing matter. It can sometimes have tragic consequences," as was the case in the 1998 murder of Matthew Shepard, a gay man.


...and something with pictures (i couldn't find a pop-up book for him)
http://www.livesci...l-orientation.html



[last edit 4/10/2012 11:20 AM by Samurai - edited 1 times]

splumer 


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Re: I'm Christian, unless you're gay
< Reply # 18 on 4/10/2012 12:32 PM >
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Posted by MrGreenJeans

It's funny, if you ask a queer the only decent and polite discussion you can possibly have is one in which you accept homosexuality. Pardon me if I don't wish mental illness on anyone and refuse to simply accept it as a legitimate lifestyle.


It's funny, if you ask a black the only decent and polite discussion you can possibly have is one in which you accept blackness. Gays don't choose to be gay, sweet cheeks.


splumer, can you be a Christian and not believe in the teachings of Christ? What is the general philosophy of Christianity, if it isn't really the teaching of Christ Jesus and his father, the almighty?

Of course not. By definition a Christian has to follow Jesus' teachings. But very few Christians actually do. I also think you can follow Jesus' teachings without believing in his divinity.


We'll have to agree to disagree on just how anti-Christian the government is, you're right in that it's more of a political discussion than religious. The laws of Leviticus were a covenant between Moses, the jewish people and God, while Jesus Christ initiated a new covenant between everyone and God. Homosexuality is condemned in both the old and new testaments.


I think you're confusing "anti-Christian" with "Not always getting everything they want." People point to Leviticus all the time when condemning homosexuality. There's a now-famous picture of a tattoo someone got of Lev. 18, despite Lev. 19 forbidding tattoos. And Jesus said to beat our children to death if they disobey. How do you choose which parts of the Bible to follow and which not to?


The bible does seem to condemn homosexuality among man, but girl on girl is not mentioned at all. Giggity.






“We are not going to have the kind of cooperation we need if everyone insists on their own narrow version of reality. … the great divide in the world today … is between people who have the courage to listen and those who are convinced that they already know it all.”

-Madeline Albright
MrGreenJeans 

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Re: I'm Christian, unless you're gay
< Reply # 19 on 4/10/2012 1:36 PM >
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Simple. Christians are not under the mosaic jewish covenant prohibiting haircuts and pork.

The bible does condemn gayness among women. If very few Christians actually follow the teaching of Jesus does that still make them really Christians?

As far as gayness goes, you said it yourself - some gays make the choice not to act on their perverse desires. Are you still an arsonist if you never light a fire? Whether or not you engage in a homosexual lifestyle is very much a choice.




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