Obviously you guys have made up your mind and wont listen. I'm done. Ya'll will find out the truth eventually, I tried to warn you.

Posted by Mr_Fiend HA! She would! Of course allah tansaltes into "God", allah is the muslim god, but not the Christian God. Its not a choice that I believe that, its a fact. Allah is not an all loving merciful god, like the God of the Christians. Allah, is the muslims "alternative" god. Try asking Christians if the gods are the same. Muslims want us to think they have the same god so that their religion will be accepted.

...for such a devout Christian, you seem pretty clueless about religion.

Posted by jukebox fuckup ...for such a devout Christian, you seem pretty clueless about religion.

Yep, ya got it cupcake, you win. You get a cookie.

Posted by Mr_Fiend EXCEPT, the islamic god "allah", is NOT the god of the Christians. They hate the Jews and the Christians for a reason ya know.

Oh? And the Christians and Jews always and have always gotten along with each other in a friendly relationship?


...don't get me wrong, it is kinda neat to see that the Jews aren't getting harassed, for once.

Posted by Mr_Fiend Obviously you guys have made up your mind and wont listen. I'm done. Ya'll will find out the truth eventually, I tried to warn you.

Wanna know the first step to the truth? Read a book. I'd recommend a historical non-fiction text, on opposed to your Bible...

Posted by jukebox fuckup ...for such a devout Christian, you seem pretty clueless about religion.

What she said. In Fiend's defense, though, Islam views God/Allah somewhat differently than the Judeo/Christian version. The interpretation of God and what one believes to be God's word is where the problem lies.

Posted by Mr_Fiend The Christian God says to love your neighbors, the islamic god "allah" says to start wars.

Apparently you have not read the koran or the hadith, and don't really know what muslims are taught.

One: it is an accepted fact of history by religious and secular scholars alike that islam and christianity share a god.

Koran 29:46 And argue not with the People of the Scripture unless it be in (a way) that is better, save with such of them as do wrong; and say: We believe in that which hath been revealed unto us and revealed unto you; our God and your God is One, and unto Him we surrender.

Hadith Volume 4, Book 56, Number 693:
Narrated Abu Huraira:

The Prophet said, "We are the last (to come) but we will be the foremost on the Day of Resurrection, nations were given the Book (i.e. Scripture) before us, and we were given the Holy Book after them. This (i.e. Friday) is the day about which they differed. So the next day (i.e. Saturday) was prescribed for the Jews and the day after it (i.e. Sunday) for the Christians. It is incumbent on every Muslim to wash his head and body on a Day (i.e. Friday) (at least) in every seven days."

of course you know what the hadith is, right?

Two: you have no idea what muslims are taught about christians. There are as many sects of islam as there are christian cults. Each immam teaches the koran interprets the hadith in his own way.

At best, outside of the minority of islamozombie jihadists, islam is ambivalent toward christianity.

The problem is, you can seek whatever pov you want and find it. just like the bible.

neither one is compatible with living together in peace, and your ignorance outpaces even scriptural intolerance.

Islam considers Adam and Noah to be prophets, and also considers the wisest lawgivers of other nations (Confucius, Hiawatha) to be prophets as long as they claimed no divinity on their own behalf.

Islam recognizes Jesus and the Jewish prophets after Abraham (such as Moses) as being divinely inspired (though not divinely born), and in a crucial distinction recognizes Muhammad (the religion's founder) as a prophet - the last.

Isam for the others:

Koran 5:82 Thou wilt find the most vehement of mankind in hostility to those who believe (to be) the Jews and the idolaters. And thou wilt find the nearest of them in affection to those who believe (to be) those who say: Lo! We are Christians. That is because there are among them priests and monks, and because they are not proud.

Volume 9, Book 92, Number 461:
Narrated Ubaidullah:

Ibn 'Abbas said, "Why do you ask the people of the scripture about anything while your Book (Quran) which has been revealed to Allah's Apostle is newer and the latest? You read it pure, undistorted and unchanged, and Allah has told you that the people of the scripture (Jews and Christians) changed their scripture and distorted it, and wrote the scripture with their own hands and said, 'It is from Allah,' to sell it for a little gain. Does not the knowledge which has come to you prevent you from asking them about anything? No, by Allah, we have never seen any man from them asking you regarding what has been revealed to you!"

Islam against the others.

Koran 4:171 O People of the Scripture! Do not exaggerate in your religion nor utter aught concerning Allah save the truth. The Messiah, Jesus son of Mary, was only a messenger of Allah, and His word which He conveyed unto Mary, and a spirit from Him. So believe in Allah and His messengers, and say not "Three" - Cease! (it is) better for you! - Allah is only One God. Far is it removed from His Transcendent Majesty that He should have a son. His is all that is in the heavens and all that is in the earth. And Allah is sufficient as Defender.

5:51 O ye who believe! Take not the Jews and the Christians for friends. They are friends one to another. He among you who taketh them for friends is (one) of them. Lo! Allah guideth not wrongdoing folk.

10:94 And if thou (Muhammad) art in doubt concerning that which We reveal unto thee, then question those who read the Scripture (that was) before thee. Verily the Truth from thy Lord hath come unto thee. So be not thou of the waverers.

Hadith 7, Book 72, Number 706:
Narrated 'Aisha and 'Abdullah bin 'Abbas:

When the disease of Allah's Apostle got aggravated, he covered his face with a Khamisa, but when he became short of breath, he would remove it from his face and say, "It is like that! May Allah curse the Jews Christians because they took the graves of their prophets as places of worship." By that he warned his follower of imitating them, by doing that which they did.

I am not defending belief in any unreasonable ideas. But your opposition to islam is based entirely on hatred, ignorance and xenophobia.

If you took the time to learn about it, you would come across unavoidable contradictions in your own beliefs and therefore you remain unenlightened with your head in the sand of unreasonable beliefs supported only by your invisible friend.

No shit, your done.

Posted by tekriter No shit, your done.

I'm not gonna try to finish a fight I know I cant win, because you all have made up your minds, it would be stupid of me to keep this going. So yeah, I'm done.

I can't reason with people who are bent on discrediting me and what I believe in.

Posted by Mr_Fiend I'm not gonna try to finish a fight I know I cant win, because you all have made up your minds, it would be stupid of me to keep this going. So yeah, I'm done. I can't reason with people who are bent on discrediting me and what I believe in.

That's because you believe unreasonable things and continually try to convince us all of the validity of same without ever offering credible evidence or clear reasoning.

Are you really done now? If you are, you might take some of your new found free time and actually read what I wrote.

Posted by Mr_Fiend I'm not gonna try to finish a fight I know I cant win, because you all have made up your minds, it would be stupid of me to keep this going. So yeah, I'm done. I can't reason with people who are bent on discrediting me and what I believe in.

No you aren't. You are going to explain to me about how the Christians and Jews get along while the Muslims, which are the sole aggressors, attacked both the Christians and the Jews. I believe how the Christians persecuted the Jews during the First Crusades is a nice starting point, or perhaps the antisemistism in the New Testament http://en.wikipedi..._the_New_Testament

Posted by jukebox fuckup No you aren't. You are going to explain to me about how the Christians and Jews get along while the Muslims, which are the sole aggressors, attacked both the Christians and the Jews. I believe how the Christians persecuted the Jews during the First Crusades is a nice starting point, or perhaps the antisemistism in the New Testament http://en.wikipedi..._the_New_Testament

I think it is a little out of touch to refer to muslims as the sole aggressor. History is rife with examples of jews and christians attacking muslims.

Zionism, is a great example of the jews, but it started as a jewish - arab fight and only recently has been re tooled as a jewish - islamic conflict.

Take a look at the relationship between christian colonialism and islam. Try reading Kim by Rudyard Kipling and look at India and Pakistan and the history of partition. Look at the origins of the borders of Iraq and Iran or the series of anglo afghan wars and the popular depictions of muslims as mad mahdis and such.

Christianity and Judaism, while apparently more civilised now, are not without much blood on their pious clasped hands.


Now I agree the wiki article that the anti-semitism of the bible and the catholic church had a lot do with the holocaust, but I don't agree it was the cause.

Can you not more accurately say that unreasonable ideas, and peoples willingness to not ask for evidence was a greater cause, if the THE cause?



Back on topic, I think that Muslims, while legally and perhaps morally correct, stepped in the poo willingly by trying to build a mosque near ground zero.

It's perfectly acceptable in the U.S. to burn the flag as a matter of free speech, but would not a reasonable person expect a good stomping if you tried this at an event in the deep south? Just sayin.

oh, yeah, and this:

http://jta.org/new...its-sights-on-jews

Posted by tekriter Now I agree the wiki article that the anti-semitism of the bible and the catholic church had a lot do with the holocaust, but I don't agree it was the cause.

Well, anti-semitism in (Weimar) Germany predated Nazi Germany, thus predating the holocaust and 'final solution'

Posted by tekriter Can you not more accurately say that unreasonable ideas, and peoples willingness to not ask for evidence was a greater cause, if the THE cause?.

Agreed.
Critical thinking is a beautiful thing. Explaining phenemena as "God's will" or an "act of God" is mutually exclusive to thinking critically...

I think the main issue here is when you are a believer others like juke here AUTOMATICALLY write you off as inferior or uneducated. This pretty much pisses someone off right off the bat and they quit listening to your rant. Just because we have faith in a higher power does not mean we don't reason or think about issues. It simply means we have one more line of thought to consider.

Posted by jeepdave I think the main issue here is when you are a believer others like juke here AUTOMATICALLY write you off as inferior or uneducated. This pretty much pisses someone off right off the bat and they quit listening to your rant. Just because we have faith in a higher power does not mean we don't reason or think about issues. It simply means we have one more line of thought to consider.

Well...

Faith means that you believe something with no good reason. There is no evidence, and the ideas you believe in, are for the most part, untestable and unfalsifiable - which therefore means that you did NOT reason through them. So, sorry, but if the unreasonable shoe fits....

It does not seem reasonable to me that someone could die and then rise again three days later, nor is there a shred of evidence to prove it. Pi is not three, and there is ample evidence to prove that it is not.

Your reasoning is logically inferior, but I never said that you were uneducated or an inferior human. I'm satisfied to point out the flaws in your arguments, or the holes in your education.

But since you are close minded right of the bat, you probably won't read this far. There is one more line of thought to consider. I'm raising money to extract the refridgerator sized diamond from my backyard that I have faith is there. Can you send me $1,000 to help fund this activity. You need to have faith that you will get a 500% return on your investment.

Posted by tekriter Well... Faith means that you believe something with no good reason. There is no evidence, and the ideas you believe in, are for the most part, untestable and unfalsifiable - which therefore means that you did NOT reason through them. So, sorry, but if the unreasonable shoe fits.... It does not seem reasonable to me that someone could die and then rise again three days later, nor is there a shred of evidence to prove it. Pi is not three, and there is ample evidence to prove that it is not. Your reasoning is logically inferior, but I never said that you were uneducated or an inferior human. I'm satisfied to point out the flaws in your arguments, or the holes in your education.

QFT (you said it best!)

So I just heard about this Mosque at Ground Zero thing.

Yes, they have a right to practice their religion freely and have a right to build it there if they want.

However....

I feel it is in extremely poor taste and does nothing but cause pain to those who suffered as a result of 9/11 which only serves to set back the image and popular opinion of Islam in American society.

Oh yeah, and I would like to beat the jackasses who though building it there was a good idea to death with the claw end of a hammer, because they are insensitive fucktards.

Posted by jeepdave I think the main issue here is when you are a believer others like juke here AUTOMATICALLY write you off as inferior or uneducated. This pretty much pisses someone off right off the bat and they quit listening to your rant. Just because we have faith in a higher power does not mean we don't reason or think about issues. It simply means we have one more line of thought to consider.

What you said is true, but it's another thing entirely to make a statement which purports to be fact without any supporting evidence. But yeah, sometimes we do come off kind of high and mighty.

It does not seem reasonable to me that someone could die and then rise again three days later, nor is there a shred of evidence to prove it. Pi is not three, and there is ample evidence to prove that it is not.

If it was reasonable, then it wouldn't be a miracle, would it?

Regarding the mosque: First, it's not a mosque; second, it's not at Ground Zero, it's two blocks away; Third, it's in an area loaded with empty storefronts. Watch this video:
http://www.youtube...atch?v=QZpT2Muxoo0
(sorry, don't know how to embed) It's long, but he make a lot of great points.

Posted by splumer If it was reasonable, then it wouldn't be a miracle, would it?

What if you substituted "miracle" with "publicity stunt" or "merketing campaign"?

Posted by splumer Regarding the mosque: First, it's not a mosque; second, it's not at Ground Zero, it's two blocks away; Third, it's in an area loaded with empty storefronts. Watch this video: http://www.youtube...atch?v=QZpT2Muxoo0 (sorry, don't know how to embed) It's long, but he make a lot of great points.

In most of the islamic world mosques are community centres as well. Often times your tax dollars go to building community centres in islamic areas of the developing world that just happen to have folks praying five times a day.


I would have to say I think it's a bad idea, but most of the opposition to it has less to do with common sense and sympathy for victims that it does with racism, ignorance and xenophobia. It's a little embarrassing.

I have taken some time away from this issue and given it some further thought and balanced evaluation.

My conclusion is still that, if you have any problem with project moving forward, you are a worthless fuck.

I have decided that you do not necessarily have to get the fuck out, but it would certainly be better for the country if you did.

It's a fucking YMCA with a chapel.

People opposing this are the ones creating new terrorists and religious war. Christianity has a long and storied history of hatred and defilement of other religions, and the result is always a strengthening of the people who are so hated.

This is not a religious issue. So fuck off. This is not a government issue, so fuck off. This is not a moral issue, so fuck off. This building that we are talking about is for helping people find community and acceptance in America, and in New York. These are not terrorists. These are Americans and kids. The attitude that people are showing about this makes it very clear to certain people that America is not worth defending, that it is worth hating because there actually is institutionalized hatred of Islam. It makes it obvious that America is actually engaging in a holy war against a particular religion (which is much closer to Christianity than most other major religions). It makes it clear that moderate Muslims are wrong for defending America, and American Muslims are wrong for loving their country.

Every day, there are more and more young American Muslims who are leaving America for ideological reasons, and their main reason for doing so is "America's war on Islam." Jesus Fucking Christ, get over your fucking blind hatred that does nothing more than give power to your enemies.