I'm sorry, I just think everybody should get a basic right to life. Sorry if that interferes with your career. I wish that people who get abortions for reasons such as convenience die right then, in the worst kind od agony they could receive.

Posted by jeepdave I'm sorry, I just think everybody should get a basic right to life. Sorry if that interferes with your career. I wish that people who get abortions for reasons such as convenience die right then, in the worst kind od agony they could receive.

Nobody is being denied any right to life. There is no person who exists in there in the form of an egg and sperm. Personhood happens over time, and a graph of the rate at which it happens is exactly* reflected by a graph of when people think it is okay to abort.

Fringe lunatics like you lie at one end, and more rational people lie closer to the middle.


*I say exactly because I mean exactly. The personhood of a fetus exists only as a construct of the people who perceive it, since it has no perception of itself. Therefore, if 50% of people think it is okay for a fetus to be aborted at 4 months, then a fetus is 50% a person. That is the only possible way to put any meaning to the word.

And today on this episode of "Pissing people off by stating the obvious", a list of examples of attempting to regulate personal behavior that failed...

Alcohol prohibition
Pre-marital sex
Inter-racial sex/marriage
Gay sex
Homosexuals in the military
Abortion

All the above were illegal at one point or another. But that didn't stop them from happening. It just ment the government deprived people of their rights for some arbitrary reason (often inspired by the invisible friend). Lives were ruined, people died, crooks got rich, and tax dollars were wasted (depending on the behavior).

List showing that we are too fucking stupid to learn from the past...

Prostitution
Gay marriage
Drug prohibition

EDIT-I should point out that all of the above are still illegal in some countries. And if you want to move to an islamist theocracy to be surrounded by people that agree with your social views then by all means go.
Isn't it odd that the "enemies of freedom" agree with the social conservative agenda? Just throwing that out there.

Posted by underdark And today on this episode of "Pissing people off by stating the obvious", a list of examples of attempting to regulate personal behavior that failed... Alcohol prohibition Pre-marital sex Inter-racial sex/marriage

And, of course, everyone agrees that the races shouldn't be allowed to mix. I mean the Bible says that right?

No, of course it doesn't. But various Bible passages were used to condemn interracial marriages. Try to find an example today of anyone saying that the Bible forbids interracial marriage. Isn't it interesting how the unchanging holy word of God has changed in just 35 years?

so im on my phone so i cant quote you hopefully you know what is about what you said. as for the fetus doesnt ask to be born, im willing assume if you could talk to a fetus it would rather develop and become a baby then to be killed. using that same logic though im sure my cats hate being indoor cats. as someone else said you cant make it illegal and expect it to go away. it will just become more dangerous for everyone involved. the only way to make people not want abortions is through science. the earlier we detect more recognible human features in fetus` the harder it will be for some to get abortions. as for regulating through law a biological function, the US hasnt made gay marriage legal yet, which a normal function and not chosen. also china does a job on keeping its population through madatory abortions. i am pr life, which i am against death in general. i think we all need to value human life more so than we do a society. that being said, if the parents of the entire cast of jersey shore had abortions, i think i would ok with that. jk

Posted by MonkeyPunchBaby im willing assume if you could talk to a fetus it would rather develop and become a baby then to be killed.

Using that same logic, I'm willing to assume that if green is the number 7, then elephants are actually spaceships.

Posted by MonkeyPunchBaby the earlier we detect more recognible human features in fetus` the harder it will be for some to get abortions.

Well, if seeing human features in a fetus were to cause all people en masse to have the emotional response that they could no longer abide abortions, then yes, that would essentially make it true that life and personhood begins at conception, simply because all of these things are only words defined by people. No one group can decide what the meaning is or what the truth is.

But, please note that many people, myself included, have been presented with all sorts of presentations about how a fetus is just a little, tiny person, and it is rubbish. Of course there are physical similarities between a born person and a fetus, but there are actually many more physical similarities between an adult and an corpse, so does that mean that the corpse is a person? Is it wrong to bury corpses because they don't want to be buried?

Posted by jeepdave I'm sorry, I just think everybody should get a basic right to life. Sorry if that interferes with your career. I wish that people who get abortions for reasons such as convenience die right then, in the worst kind od agony they could receive.

I'm pretty sure that no woman would have an invasive procedure to terminate her pregnancy simply out of "convenience".

And regardless of your religious views no one should be sentenced to an agonizing death just because they choose to get an abortion.

This is the sort of rhetoric that makes it okay to firebomb clinics and kill doctors.



The law weighs the legal rights of the mother to determine what happens to her own body along with the rights of the unborn child.

The concept that life begins at conception is purely religious - there is no scientific basis for this belief.

While no one would agree that abortion should be used as contraception, there is some debate on when it should be allowed. That debate should revolve more around human wellbeing and suffering rather than a theological debate on when "life begins".


Consider the following stats on teen pregnancy, teen abortion and religious belief. Compare USA and Canada with the least religious european countries:

Teenage Birthrate per 1000 female aged 15-19

USA 53
Iceland 19
Canada 16
Norway 11
Finland 8
Denmark 7
Sweden 7
Netherlands 5

Abortion rate for the same pop'n

USA 30.2
Iceland 20.6
Canada 22.1
Norway 18.3
Finland 9.6
Denmark 15.4
Sweden 17.7
Netherlands 3.9



Belief in god (% that say they believe in god)

USA 92
Iceland 38
Canada 77
Norway 32
Finland 41
Denmark 31
Sweden 23
Netherlands 34


I'm not sure we should allow religion to be the only source of "moral" thought. The "atheist" countries seem to have a better grasp of the debate and have better outcomes.

Posted by jeepdave I'm sorry, I just think everybody should get a basic right to life.

unless they're on welfare or something like that?
hypocrisy! the mark of a true christian!

Posted by Samurai unless they're on welfare or something like that? hypocrisy! the mark of a true christian!

yeah, right to life until they're 18 and we can execute them or send them off to die in war.

Posted by Samurai unless they're on welfare or something like that? hypocrisy! the mark of a true christian!

Sam, a persons choices vs a person terminated before they can make a choice.

Liberal ignorance at its best.

We need a constant stream of poor idiots to help maintain the lifestyles of the rich folks who run the country.

Posted by jeepdave Sam, a persons choices vs a person terminated before they can make a choice. Liberal ignorance at its best.

There is no person. Conservative religious confusion at its normal.

Posted by MutantMandias Using that same logic, I'm willing to assume that if green is the number 7, then elephants are actually spaceships.

I know that! thats why i added the line about my cats.

Posted by MutantMandias Well, if seeing human features in a fetus were to cause all people en masse to have the emotional response that they could no longer abide abortions, then yes, that would essentially make it true that life and personhood begins at conception, simply because all of these things are only words defined by people. No one group can decide what the meaning is or what the truth is.

I'm not saying everyone. I'm just saying people calling abortion murder and firebombing clinics and shooting doctors isn't going to be changing anyones mind. The only way to do so would be through advancements in science.

Posted by MonkeyPunchBaby I'm not saying everyone. I'm just saying people calling abortion murder and firebombing clinics and shooting doctors isn't going to be changing anyones mind. The only way to do so would be through advancements in science.

I think I understand what you're saying, and I can respect it.

Of course, I can also follow along behind you, showing a perti dish with a cell in it, convincing people that there is nothing in the least bit human about a zygote.

And I could horrify them with pictures of a 7 week old embryo, asking how comfortable they would be raising this little inhuman monster.

Posted by Mr_Fiend Omg. Here are the facts Abortion= killing something that WILL be a baby in a few weeks or months.

Assuming it is carried to term. Something like three-fourths of all fertilized eggs are spontaneously aborted in the first month after fertilization.

So basically in mere seconds (according to most doctors and liberal ding bats) the "fetus" goes from being fair game to a treasured human life after leaving the uterus.

A quote from my doctor: "I've been a physician over 20 years and I have never seen someone who has had a late-term abortion for anything except medical necessity." So to say that, at 8.5 months gestation, a woman could decide she wants to end her pregnancy and get an abortion and it would be OK is simply false. I suppose it is possible, but it doesn't seem to occur.

I'm not saying everyone. I'm just saying people calling abortion murder and firebombing clinics and shooting doctors isn't going to be changing anyones mind. The only way to do so would be through advancements in science.

But it has. Many doctors have stopped performing abortions because they fear for their lives. And North Dakota is considering a bill that would make it justifiable homicide to kill abortion providers, using the "logic" that one would be preventing other murders (i.e., abortions) from occurring.

Here are some more fun facts:

Iceland and Sweden were amongst the first countries to legalize abortion. The rates reflect something there as well. The abortion rate in Sweden is nearly half that of the US.

In 2000, in the USA, the abortion rate was 12 among white women, 31 among Hispanic women and 57 among black women. Do abortion rates have anything to do with education, access to contraception and poverty?

The crime rate also dropped drastically 13-15 years after Roe vs Wade indicating that there is a correlation between unwanted children and the crime rate.

Incidence of abortion has declined worldwide as access to family planning education and contraceptive services has increased. (both of these are opposed by the catholic church)

http://www.guttmac...rnals/3310607.html

What about after birth? Look at the infant mortality rate in the USA. Those babies did not choose to have poor health care and poor maternal education (both causes of infant mortality)

Deaths per 1000 live births


USA 6.3
Iceland 2.9
Canada 4.8
Norway 3.3
Finland 3.7
Denmark 4.4
Sweden 3.2
Netherlands 4.7


What about when the survivors grow up?

Homicide rate per year per 100,000 inhabitants

USA 5.0
Iceland 0.00
Canada 1.81
Norway .60
Finland 2.5
Denmark 1.01
Sweden 0.89
Netherlands 0.93

Looks like it is 10 x more deadly to live in the Christian USA than in atheist Norway. None of those people chose to be murdered (and all were definitely capable of suffering and coherent thought)


Unsafe abortions (like with knitting needles and such) result in 70,000 deaths and 5 million disabilities per year globally.

This alone seems to be reason enough to make reducing the need for abortions a priority and making access to safe ones available.

Posted by tekriter This alone seems to be reason enough to make reducing the need for abortions a priority and making access to safe ones available.

But babies are cute and women who have sex are sluts that should be punished.

Posted by splumer women who have sex are sluts that should be punished.

Only if that's what they are into.

And if they are then they should PM me at their earliest convenience...

Posted by splumer But babies are cute and women who have sex are sluts that should be punished.

since you brought it up, god agrees:

Tamar thy daughter in law hath played the harlot; and also, behold, she is with child by whoredom. And Judah said, Bring her forth, and let her be burnt. -- Genesis 38:24

Posted by tekriter since you brought it up, god agrees: Tamar thy daughter in law hath played the harlot; and also, behold, she is with child by whoredom. And Judah said, Bring her forth, and let her be burnt. -- Genesis 38:24

harsh.
yeah, truly a god of peace and love... truly.