If you had a real, moral objection then you would withhold your taxes. They could put you in jail, but at least you wouldn't be an accomplice to murder and torture. I'm sure you'd rather stay out of jail, pay your taxes and just say you don't have any choice in the matter.

So what splumer? You could have paid for it yourself. My relationship status has little to do with anything.

Jeep you got that right! What the liberals call greed is not always a bad thing.

Sure! I like some of the 7 deadly sins myself, but I admit that I'm not a Christian. What's your excuse?



Ps. 10:3 - "the greedy man curses and spurns God"
Lk. 12:15 - "be on guard against every form of greed; life is not in possessions"
II Peter 2:14 - (false prophets) "have hearts trained in greed"



Lk. 3:14 - "be content with your wages"
Phil. 4:11 - "content in whatever circumstances I am"
I Tim. 6:6 - "godliness is means of gain, accompanied by contentment"
I Tim. 6:8 - "food and covering, with these we shall be content"
Heb. 13:5 - "content with what you have"

Posted by MrGreenJeans If you had a real, moral objection then you would withhold your taxes. They could put you in jail, but at least you wouldn't be an accomplice to murder and torture. I'm sure you'd rather stay out of jail, pay your taxes and just say you don't have any choice in the matter.

I do have a real, moral objection to it. But not paying my taxes and going to jail would have the opposite effect of what I would want. I'd lose my house ad make my kids homeless, as well as not doing a damn thing to stop wars against people with darker skin.

By the same token, why aren't you bombing abortion clinics? Simple. Because the best way to change a system is from the inside.

I don't believe I ever stated that I was a Christian during this discussion.

Who said anything about wars "against people with darker skin" splumer?? I suppose wars against people with lighter skin are okay with you? That sounds like a racist comment.

Where's your God now? I'll point out his varied forms to you One he hangs on the end of a tree Two he's nailed to the arms of this selfsame tree And three he spins, he spins and soars and laughs through space Ah, one day the world sees Oh, one day the world sees Hitler as Kalki God as Kalki

And he lies matted Half in time and half in space Through the rising incense smoke I see him in a crowded room I see him crossing the mountain range If we see man at his most bloody If we see man at his most base Shall we point then and there This is reality, this is his nature Oh, what makes the pain more real than the joy? Both are so mingled now and muddied together To pull them apart We butcher the essence and cripple its meaning

God is on the cross Or three gods perhaps If they are all one Neither coming nor going Neither waning nor waxing But immense in their unity Matter and space He rides between the spaces And he rides between the pain In the secret heart of becoming In the secret modes of darkness His eyes are now shuttered windows
Oh, man, man, man, man Man with his claws and his lies With his peace and his pain With his love and his sorrow With his candle of hope that stutters and dies
No liberation through hearing When the sound of the worlds collapsing Deafens deafens deafens our ears And pierces our hearts

Hitler as Kalki Kalki as Hitler Rolling and roaring Swooping and soaring Exultant and trembling Sorrow sorrow sorrow Where the eagle flies Where the eagle shudders Where the eagle drops Where the eagle plummets All things merging dissolving Then stars collapse The vortex commences in space The rubble collects The debris gathers Time starts to shiver My heart's blood

If I dissolve into your body If I hoped to find White light in your soul If together we fall into forever Would we not notice the turbulence That no longer waits?

First he comes from on a hill Then he's running throughout the town Then he stands Devoid of peace Devoid of place Devoid of pity

Oh, my dear Christ Carried broken from sad brown earth Teeth, teeth, teeth, teeth, teeth, teeth, teeth, teeth, teeth.


Edit: kalki is the name of my new truck so it is pertinent to the conversation. also, this is my religious text.

Posted by MrGreenJeans I don't believe I ever stated that I was a Christian during this discussion. Who said anything about wars "against people with darker skin" splumer?? I suppose wars against people with lighter skin are okay with you? That sounds like a racist comment.

I admit I made that assumption. The wars comment was in reference to you mentioning not paying for things the gov't does that you find objectionable.

Posted by MutantMandias Sure! I like some of the 7 deadly sins myself, but I admit that I'm not a Christian. What's your excuse? Ps. 10:3 - "the greedy man curses and spurns God" Lk. 12:15 - "be on guard against every form of greed; life is not in possessions" II Peter 2:14 - (false prophets) "have hearts trained in greed" Lk. 3:14 - "be content with your wages" Phil. 4:11 - "content in whatever circumstances I am" I Tim. 6:6 - "godliness is means of gain, accompanied by contentment" I Tim. 6:8 - "food and covering, with these we shall be content" Heb. 13:5 - "content with what you have"

Oh, snap!

Posted by splumer I admit I made that assumption. The wars comment was in reference to you mentioning not paying for things the gov't does that you find objectionable.

So you only object to wars against people with darker skin than you?

Posted by MrGreenJeans We all know atheists are the smartest people around, just ask one! And atheists never molest children. Why resort to Catholic bashing rather than discuss the actual merits of forcing individuals to pay for others contraceptives against their moral objections? Not to mention the fact that Catholics are not the only religious group to be against this. Contrary to the atheists claims that Catholics are "stupid" there is a long heritage of brilliant Catholics from Copernicus to Pasteur, including Nobel Prize winners. Faith and reason are like two wings on which the human spirit rises to the contemplation of truth.

Maybe it would help to point out here (again) that atheism is not a defined system of beliefs, but merely the absence of belief in one of the oft proclaimed yet never seen gods. That fact in itself does not define any other set of beliefs that can be attributed to a group. You define me only by what you notice I DON'T believe.

Catholics are also atheist with reference to gods like zeuss and apollo - yet that does not define or explain their belief system. However they can be defined as a group by their beliefs which are widely known and published. They are self identified and defined by a set of beliefs that they profess to anyone who will listen (and some that they force to listen).

Further, the catholic church does seem to be far more effective as an organization at raping children, than say promoting scientific discovery. I am unaware of any atheist groups that are known for raping children, not to mention one that is widely reported for conspiring to cover up said raping.

In my case I am only an atheist when described in relation to religious beliefs. That label does not come with a catechism, meetings, or a set of beliefs that can even be compared to others you issue with this label. My only guidance is placing a higher degree of emphasis on reason and skepticism rather than foolish notions such as faith, magic and other unreasonable ways of thinking that enable religious beliefs and other evils.

“I know of no society in human history that ever suffered because its people became too desirous of evidence in support of their core beliefs.” Sam Harris

Again, more lies about Catholics "raping children". The actual numbers of alleged rapes are very tiny compared to the number of allegations of other so-called "abuse", which is also very small compared to the numbers of Catholics. You do not know of any other group because you have no interest in finding out if your assertions about Catholics are true or not.

Atheists also have meetings, churches, and are recognized by the US Supreme Court as a religion. Some atheists want their beliefs to be considered a religion when it's convenient to enjoy the benefits of such a title, but not when they are crying about other religions. Anyone who disbelieves in the idea of any God is an atheist. While it may be true that individual atheists and groups of atheists have ideological differences from one another in the same way that Christian sects and individual Christians differ in belief professing to be an atheist is professing to be part of the basic atheist religion. Atheist political leaders have butchered more people than Christians hands down.

Christians as a group are much more likely to seek forgiveness for unsavory activities than non-Christians. Where you claim there is a "cover up" others see faith in repentance.

Posted by MrGreenJeans Atheists also have meetings, churches, and are recognized by the US Supreme Court as a religion.

Okay, so now we can all accept that the government is always right. Thanks for clearing things up.

this fucking green jeans guy doesn't know if he's afoot, horseback or snakebit.
face it, you're a fucking wanna be conservative weirdo that has probably never had an analytical thought go through your head that wasn't prompted by some talking point or sound bite. You couldn't hang with a rational debate on this board if you were at fucking gunpoint!

Posted by MrGreenJeans Again, more lies about Catholics "raping children". The actual numbers of alleged rapes are very tiny compared to the number of allegations of other so-called "abuse", which is also very small compared to the numbers of Catholics. You do not know of any other group because you have no interest in finding out if your assertions about Catholics are true or not. Atheists also have meetings, churches, and are recognized by the US Supreme Court as a religion. Some atheists want their beliefs to be considered a religion when it's convenient to enjoy the benefits of such a title, but not when they are crying about other religions. Anyone who disbelieves in the idea of any God is an atheist. While it may be true that individual atheists and groups of atheists have ideological differences from one another in the same way that Christian sects and individual Christians differ in belief professing to be an atheist is professing to be part of the basic atheist religion. Atheist political leaders have butchered more people than Christians hands down. Christians as a group are much more likely to seek forgiveness for unsavory activities than non-Christians. Where you claim there is a "cover up" others see faith in repentance.

You fool. The supreme court in the US ruled that atheism could be given equal protection under the law based on the concept of free exercise. This is as much an affirmation of freedom from religion as it is of freedom of religion.

The rest of your crap is unsubstantiated crap. Hitler? A catholic who slaughter jews based on the century old catholic idea of blood libel and blaming jews for the cruci-fiction. Maybe if Germans had been a little more skeptical and reasonable we could have avoided a whole lot of slaughter.

History is rife with killing, torture and atrocity in the name of religion. To deny this simply demonstrates an encyclopedic ignorance of history.

BTW, Religion is "a set of beliefs concerning the cause, nature, and purpose of the universe, especially when considered as the creation of a superhuman agency or agencies, usually involving devotional and ritual observances, and often containing a moral code governing the conduct of human affairs." - and not a set of things might NOT believe in.

Posted by tekriter BTW, Religion is "a set of beliefs concerning the cause, nature, and purpose of the universe, especially when considered as the creation of a superhuman agency or agencies, usually involving devotional and ritual observances, and often containing a moral code governing the conduct of human affairs." - and not a set of things might NOT believe in.

Of course, one might say that science and basic moral philosophy are a religion, and that is why people of so many religions are so opposed to a belief in logic, cause and effect, and humane treatment of others.

Yes, one might say that.

lol @ sam. Wanna knock my teeth out? You have no credibility in any argument after stooping to physical threats on the interwebs. Mutant and I obviously don't agree on very much, but at least I do find a few of his points and arguments very interesting.

The idea that Hitler wanted to remove the jews from Germany on purely religious grounds is absurd. I never said there haven't been many examples of actual atrocities in the name of religion, only that these are far outweighed by atrocities for other reasons.

Posted by MrGreenJeans lol @ sam. Wanna knock my teeth out? You have no credibility in any argument

Posted by MrGreenJeans The idea that Hitler wanted to remove the jews from Germany on purely religious grounds is absurd. I never said there haven't been many examples of actual atrocities in the name of religion, only that these are far outweighed by atrocities for other reasons.

click to view

This.

Your statement is completely incorrect, lacks any supporting evidence and makes assumptions such as a causal relationship that is pure fantasy.

Also, that is not what I said. There is no doubt that hitler and his regime were theistic. Much of the holocaust had to do with catholic beliefs and there is no coincidence the a RELIGIOUS group - the jews - were singled out.

Further, there is no dogma to the absence of belief, and nothing in the statement "I don't believe in a god" that leads to atrocities.

The simple fact is that the atrocities committed in the last century by totalitarian regimes such as the third reich, stalin and pol pot had nothing whatsoever to do with any lack of belief in a specific god and everything to do with human's capacity for violence and the need to exercise power over each other. The same is true for other conflicts for which there is no end of excuses.

On the other hand, atrocities such as the inquisition, the crusades, the salem witch trial and countless other conflicts from aztec wars to the sudan have had everything to do with religion, the causal relationship is obvious and documented.

The argument you are making that religion is not bad because there were other more badder things is facile. It is simply one more reason to distrust organized religion and demand evidence for foolish claims.

Go ahead and give us some examples of atrocities caused because someone did not believe unreasonable things.

Posted by tekriter Go ahead and give us some examples of atrocities caused because someone did not believe unreasonable things.

I'll start by ruling out a couple of things.

Genghis Khan killed a bitchload of people, but was religiously tolerant. He didn't kill for religious reasons, but he certainly didn't kill for lack of religious reasons.

And, the "Christian nation" of the United States killed a fuckton of native Americans, but not for religious reasons... although, religious reasons certainly helped people justify that the victims didn't deserve treatment as humans.

I'll go ahead and repeat my core argument from a few threads back: atrocities are committed for the purposes of attaining or maintaining power rather than purely being motivated by the ideology that is used to justify them.

Posted by earthworm I'll go ahead and repeat my core argument from a few threads back: atrocities are committed for the purposes of attaining or maintaining power rather than purely being motivated by the ideology that is used to justify them.

No man can kill in the name of God and think he is doing the right thing. But, he will use the name of God to justify what he has done.