Posted by tekriter Some christian sects believe the bible is infallible, others claim to have the only right way to "interpret" it. I would not lumpo them all together except to point out that neither option is reasonable. Why does it need to be interpreted? Should not an omnipotent god be able to just say what he meant?

1. What about those who just interpret it without claiming theirs is the only right way? Where does that put them?

2. That's like saying, "Why bother taking a geometry test when you could just look at the answers?" The reason why people try to interpret the Bible is to learn something from it. If God just said what He meant, there'd be no learning involved for a lack of something to figure out.

In other words, people learn things from the Bible because, as a general rule, people learn better when they have something to figure out or be involved with.

what the fuck can you honestly learn from the bible? seriously?
not a goddamn thing.

Posted by Samurai what the fuck can you honestly learn from the bible? seriously? not a goddamn thing.

Okay, how about we aren't going there.

Oh, right. Japan. Yeah, it was the earth.

Posted by HarvestmanFail Okay, how about we aren't going there. Oh, right. Japan. Yeah, it was the earth.

oh no...we are going there... what's on your mind?

Sam.................Jesus loves you.

Posted by jeepdave Sam.................Jesus loves you.

Posted by HarvestmanFail 1. What about those who just interpret it without claiming theirs is the only right way? Where does that put them?

Who, exactly, does that? If you don't believe you are correct, then you don't believe. It is a fools errand to insist everyone is correct. The history of religion is awash with the blood of people who insisted their version of god's word was the correct one.

How is Phred Phelps interpretation different from yours? Do you insist his point of view is still valid? How, exactly, is Osama bin Laden's interpretation of the Koran wrong?

All of this is pointless, since the key question, in my mind, would be interpret based on what evidence? The argument dissolves on the religious end, since there is little evidence provided for the magical claims of the bible, or what the intent of the author(s) was in the face of issues such as genetic manipulation.

Posted by HarvestmanFail 2. That's like saying, "Why bother taking a geometry test when you could just look at the answers?" The reason why people try to interpret the Bible is to learn something from it. If God just said what He meant, there'd be no learning involved for a lack of something to figure out. In other words, people learn things from the Bible because, as a general rule, people learn better when they have something to figure out or be involved with.

It is nothing like that. Geometry is based on observable rules and testable statements about the way things are. It's texts are in plain english and the information on offer is readily applicable in the real world and has no other source.

What, exactly, are we apt to learn from an iron age story book? That slavery is okay? Women are property? Pi is 3? The cure for leprosy is some burnt offerings and oils? The best way to achieve peace is to kill your own kid by nailing him to a piece of wood? Specimens of he entire biomass of the earth can be collected and stored in a boat?

Posted by maypost Well the fact of the matter is, its in NO WAY WHATSOEVER ok to push your religion on anyone. Heck, even saying you think any religion is the right one for you personally is beyond rude, it's stupid... only a moron would do it.. And if you are Islamic, then obviously you are a HUGE THREAT to all living things on earth that hold peace with any regard.

Or you can simplify every idea down to your level and thus lose the original meaning and misrepresent it for your own religious agenda.

Posted by maypost However it is perfectly ok to push atheism on every last person on the planet

I'm not sure you understand the difference between atheism and religion.

Religion is a system of beliefs that rely on faith.

Atheism is simply an absence of faith.

I'm not suggesting anyone accept anything on faith or do anything that requires magical thinking. Quite the opposite. I am questioning unreasonable ideas (religious or not) and suggesting that for questions as important as these we should have a higher standard of evidence and reject special pleading and accomodationism.

Posted by maypost So to wrap up this summary of the past month on the religion board... Saying you believe in god in any way is wrong and downright offensive and just plain dumb, but being militant about the fact that you dont think god is real is perfectly ok and not in any way hypocritical.

I think a better summation would be for the faithful to jump on any dissenting post immediately, and scream about how unfair it is that someone would disagree with something you called faith and expected all to agree.

The next step is to impossibly confuse the idea with the person and then try to demonize the person whose ideas you don't like.

Posted by tekriter It is nothing like that. Geometry is based on observable rules and testable statements about the way things are. It's texts are in plain english and the information on offer is readily applicable in the real world and has no other source. What, exactly, are we apt to learn from an iron age story book? That slavery is okay? Women are property? Pi is 3? The cure for leprosy is some burnt offerings and oils? The best way to achieve peace is to kill your own kid by nailing him to a piece of wood? Specimens of he entire biomass of the earth can be collected and stored in a boat?

Geometry was only an example.

Once again, I find it ironic that you see the Bible as wrong, and yet you seem to be just fine with backing up your arguments with it. I don't know why you choose to believe that the majority of Christians take every damn thing in the Bible literally.

Posted by HarvestmanFail Geometry was only an example. Once again, I find it ironic that you see the Bible as wrong, and yet you seem to be just fine with backing up your arguments with it. I don't know why you choose to believe that the majority of Christians take every damn thing in the Bible literally.

I submit that you lack good reading comprehension skills.

Posted by MutantMandias I submit that you lack good reading comprehension skills.

+1

Also:

Posted by jeepdave Sam.................Jesus loves you.

Posted by Samurai

...yer killin me.

There is no God. It's just us. We're too far away from any other life-supporting planets so it really is just us, here on Earth. As humans, we are way more alike than we'll ever understand. We're far too arrogant to come to any consensus anyways. But yes, we are alone here on Earth. Religion is what we doto feel less "alone".

Posted by HarvestmanFail Geometry was only an example. Once again, I find it ironic that you see the Bible as wrong, and yet you seem to be just fine with backing up your arguments with it. I don't know why you choose to believe that the majority of Christians take every damn thing in the Bible literally.

oh fer fucks sake... how can you believe that babbling book of bullshit and the happy happy joy joy horseshit that goes with it? HOW? It's such unbelievable bullshit to someone takes the world rationally.

Do you HONESTLY think that there is an invisible thing watching every fucking thing you do and keeping a running tally on the big old immortality scoreboard? You making reservations for an afterlife that's not there?

Barnum was right.

Posted by HarvestmanFail Once again, I find it ironic that you see the Bible as wrong, and yet you seem to be just fine with backing up your arguments with it. I don't know why you choose to believe that the majority of Christians take every damn thing in the Bible literally.

I think the point is that as a "holy" book, a believer has to, well, believe what's in there is true, at least to some extent. The problem is, how does one decide what to follow and what not to follow? I'm reminded of the guy who got the tattoo of the verse from Leviticus calling homosexuality an abomination, yet only a few verses later, tattooing is prohibited. Why obey one verse of one chapter and not the other? OK, I get that in a modern society, slavery is considered morally wrong, despite passages in the Bible that allow it. But how do we decide which passages should be superceded by modern ideas? Slavery's a no-brainer, but what about the statement that women should be silent in church? My brother-in-law, who is from Egypt, still believes in that, and feels very strongly that women should not be ministers. He's had some problem with his wife, my wife's sister, because of it. But women pastors are common.

The flip side is, if we abandon part of it because it clashes with modern ideas, why not abandon the whole thing?

Posted by HarvestmanFail Geometry was only an example. Once again, I find it ironic that you see the Bible as wrong, and yet you seem to be just fine with backing up your arguments with it.

This usually turns into a mud slinging fest - just for the record, I am sure you are a good person and your motivations are generally good toward your fellow man.

My issue is with your ideas about the nature of the universe. I think - the constant tendancy toward ad hominem attacks notwithstanding - that the best way forward is promoting civil discussion and making clear logical arguments.

That said, lets unpack what you said.

I don't agree with your assertion that I think the bible is "wrong". I think there is no good reason to believe it is the word of a god, I also think it is wrong to take it literally. It is no more wrong than any other work of fiction is wrong.

My argument is as follows:

1) The bible is the core of christian belief. Whether taken literally or as allegory, it is the only common source of information and millions of people look to it for guidance on everything from raising children to gay marriage to abortion laws.

Lutheranism, for example, and Westboro BC take the bible for what it says it is - the word of god. Other sects take a more "moderate' view but lack consensus on exactly how or why they need to "interpret".

The only "evidence" anyone ever points to for the existence of the christ is the bible. It is therefore the most important christian literature.



2) The bible - as a moral guide, or a historical record - is a horribly flawed and contradictory book. It is packed with fictions, inacuracies, scientific wrongs, impossible acts and decidedly immoral passages.



3) The bible is clearly written by iron age men for iron age men. It has been edited by church officals through the years for a multiplicity of reasons - cheif among them as reason advanced even simple people began to see the contradictions in medical facts or about the soplar system and heliocentrism for a few examples.



4) Since the bible must be "interpreted" and it is so prevalent in society, it can be used for good as well as evil. (Fred Phelps, George W).



5) Anything good in the bible is there by accident. Some moral truths are universal and existed in many cultures before the tribes of israel. Even monkeys practice the golden rule. Any good moral lesson you find can be countered with an immoral one right from scripture (try me). Any positive lessons can be found from secular sources and require no magical thinking or leaps of faith.

Posted by HarvestmanFail I don't know why you choose to believe that the majority of Christians take every damn thing in the Bible literally.

1) As above, I know that "most" christians do not take the bible literally. I see this as a problem in and of itself.

2) The literal bible is a cruel and immoral guide to not getting along with others on this planet. Most christians realized this and that is why there are so many sects - there are literally and infinite number of ways to interpret the texts - all intellectually dishonest to some extent.

3) Our knowledge of the universe expands and the bible remains static. The only way for your co-religionists to accomodate this greater knowledge is to change your interpretation to match the contemporary world. It has been thus for all of recorded history. The reformation was about his exact issue.

Exodus 21:2 "If thou buy an Hebrew servant, six years he shall serve: and in the seventh he shall go out free for nothing."

God either agrees with slavery or he does not. What is the correct interpretation? IF is assume the bible is the word of god, it is not a great leap, after reading his book, to assume he wants me to keep slaves.

4) The fact that christian exegesis is required at all is a clue that the book they are devoted to is flawed and should be examined with a more critical eye.

The crucifiction fiction is a good example. Beyond the contradictory moral issues of torturing your own kid - it is IMPOSSIBLE. No person has ever been known to die for three days and come back to life, let alone fly.

Extraordinary claims require extraordinary evidence - and none is provided.

Posted by tekriter Extraordinary claims require extraordinary evidence - and none is provided.

I beg your pardon. The proof is that the Bible says so, and the Bible is the holy word of God because some people got together and decided which books they liked, and which ones to edit together, and then told everyone that those were the right ones, because at the time, no one could agree on anything.

"It was even possible for the most venerated patriarchs of the Church, like St. Augustine and St. Thomas Aquinas, to conclude that heretics should be tortured (Augustine) or killed (Aquinas). Martin Luther and John Calvin advocated the wholesale murder of heretics, apostates, Jews, and witches. You are, of course, free to interpret the Bible differently—though isn't it amazing that you have succeeded in discerning the true teachings of Christianity, while the most influential thinkers in the history of your faith failed?"

Sam Harris

Ugh.... Bad things happen for a reason. You get nations and areas that are anti God, then His blessing and protection is lifted off of them, which allows the other force (Satan) to have his way and claim souls. That's in the bible too, but no one cares to talk about that.

It will only get worse. So you ask, what about the innocent people who where killed, who we not "anti-God"? Well who is to say God didn't try speaking to them, or everyone for that matter and they simply were not listening because they were too stubborn. That's also in the bible.

Think back on all the areas around the world hit by major "acts of nature", lets say in the past 10 years. Funny how all of those areas have turned away from God more so than other places.

Bad things happen because there is someone out there other than God who wants your soul, and he wants your soul because he hates God and does not want Him to have it. God knows this, and has tried to warn people since the time of Adam and Eve. Guess what, they didnt listen, and so God's presence was lifted off of them.

It's a very basic principle conveyed throughout the bible. You dont listen to God, bad things happen, and Satan has free roam. This isn't just my "opinion", it has been written down for thousands of years.

But of course, if you refuse to believe, you will suffer, watch other people suffer, be confused and not ever know why. What a horrible life, but it doesnt have to be that way...

Posted by Mr_Fiend Ugh.... Bad things happen for a reason. You get nations and areas that are anti God, then His blessing and protection is lifted off of them, which allows the other force (Satan) to have his way and claim souls. That's in the bible too, but no one cares to talk about that. It will only get worse. So you ask, what about the innocent people who where killed, who we not "anti-God"? Well who is to say God didn't try speaking to them, or everyone for that matter and they simply were not listening because they were too stubborn. That's also in the bible. Think back on all the areas around the world hit by major "acts of nature", lets say in the past 10 years. Funny how all of those areas have turned away from God more so than other places. Bad things happen because there is someone out there other than God who wants your soul, and he wants your soul because he hates God and does not want Him to have it. God knows this, and has tried to warn people since the time of Adam and Eve. Guess what, they didnt listen, and so God's presence was lifted off of them. It's a very basic principle conveyed throughout the bible. You dont listen to God, bad things happen, and Satan has free roam. This isn't just my "opinion", it has been written down for thousands of years. But of course, if you refuse to believe, you will suffer, watch other people suffer, be confused and not ever know why. What a horrible life, but it doesnt have to be that way...

wait...is this satire?


last 10 years, so 9/11 counts? thankfully God struck down the very unchristian USA!!! oh wait...

Posted by Mr_Fiend It's a very basic principle conveyed throughout the bible. You dont listen to God, bad things happen, and Satan has free roam. This isn't just my "opinion", it has been written down for thousands of years. But of course, if you refuse to believe, you will suffer, watch other people suffer, be confused and not ever know why. What a horrible life, but it doesnt have to be that way...

I think Mr. Tek and Mr. Mandias will have a few things to say regarding your statements.