Posted by Trixi "I was an atheist at one time. And like many atheists, the issue of people believing in God bothered me greatly. What is it about atheists that we would spend so much time, attention, and energy refuting something that we don't believe even exists?! What causes us to do that? When I was an atheist, I attributed my intentions as caring for those poor, delusional people...to help them realize their hope was completely ill-founded. To be honest, I also had another motive. As I challenged those who believed in God, I was deeply curious to see if they could convince me otherwise. Part of my quest was to become free from the question of God. If I could conclusively prove to believers that they were wrong, then the issue is off the table, and I would be free to go about my life. I didn't realize that the reason the topic of God weighed so heavily on my mind, was because God was pressing the issue. I have come to find out that God wants to be known. He created us with the intention that we would know him. He has surrounded us with evidence of himself and he keeps the question of his existence squarely before us. It was as if I couldn't escape thinking about the possibility of God. In fact, the day I chose to acknowledge God's existence, my prayer began with, "Ok, you win..." It might be that the underlying reason atheists are bothered by people believing in God is because God is actively pursuing them." ~ Marilyn Adamson, former atheist

This is perfectly put... thanks for posting this!

Tek is going to attack you for posting it, but I still think it's a fantastic quotation.

Posted by maypost This is perfectly put... thanks for posting this!

+1

Posted by Mr_Fiend +1

+2

This is perfectly put... thanks for posting this! Tek is going to attack you for posting it

Is the fact that you pre-characterize any response as an attack supposed to pursuade me not to repsond?

It is only a perfect quotation if it actually said anything of substance.

Posted by Trixi "I was an atheist at one time. ...

It is a wordy and prosaic little quote about nothing at all. The only thing that it demonstrates is that marylin wanted something to believe in, so she simply decided to believe in a god.

She cites no good reason to decide this god exists, nor does she provide any evidence. It is no more than a bad story about pascal's wager.

In fact it seems entirely designed to convince atheists that their lives are empty and that they should give up the struggle, while at the same time patting her co-religionists on the back for believing the same fantastical garbage, with the same absence of reason she has.

Here is a perfect quote:

"Religious moderates are, in large part, responsible for the religious conflict in our world, because their beliefs provide the context in which scriptural literalism and religious violence can never be adequately opposed." Sam Harris

Where to begin. This is a board made for discussion. I like to think it can remain generally civil, but I am not delusional, I am well aware that this is a VERY sensitive subject for many people. There are many Christians on here, people who base their lives on certain beliefs. And there are atheists on here, some who are genuinely curious as to what motivates the believers, and those who are certainly just here to stir the pot. There are people of other religions as well, but it is usually a Christian V. Atheist deal.

I can say for a fact that I am not on here enough to be the perfect mod for this forum. But I do look when I can, but I try not to take a heavy hand. I want to continue the back and forth that is so common here, although it is a bit disappointing that it does become the same thread/argument every single time, regardless of the original topic.

I try not to lock something unless it has gotten downright offensive (although some people are sure to be more easily offended than myself). I'm sure I've locked off topic things, but I generally avoid that because I still feel that there can be valuable back and forth regardless of the fact that it's gone far off topic.

I am going to keep this thread open for the time being, because though it no longer has anything to do with the tragedy in Japan, it is still interesting and hopefully can be respectful.

~April

We'll behave Miss April Lady. I promise

Nice to see ya on here

Posted by Trixi "I was an atheist at one time. And like many atheists, the issue of people believing in God bothered me greatly. What is it about atheists that we would spend so much time, attention, and energy refuting something that we don't believe even exists?! What causes us to do that? When I was an atheist, I attributed my intentions as caring for those poor, delusional people...to help them realize their hope was completely ill-founded. To be honest, I also had another motive. As I challenged those who believed in God, I was deeply curious to see if they could convince me otherwise. Part of my quest was to become free from the question of God. If I could conclusively prove to believers that they were wrong, then the issue is off the table, and I would be free to go about my life. I didn't realize that the reason the topic of God weighed so heavily on my mind, was because God was pressing the issue. I have come to find out that God wants to be known. He created us with the intention that we would know him. He has surrounded us with evidence of himself and he keeps the question of his existence squarely before us. It was as if I couldn't escape thinking about the possibility of God. In fact, the day I chose to acknowledge God's existence, my prayer began with, "Ok, you win..." It might be that the underlying reason atheists are bothered by people believing in God is because God is actively pursuing them." ~ Marilyn Adamson, former atheist

Polarity jumping. The part that gets me the most about this line of thinking is that your faith allows no room for the ones that don't share your faith. I am a highly spiritual person, and the reason for that is that I have seen things that are beyond logical understanding. The problem with religion is that much like science, it tries to control the uncontrollable. We still don't know why gravity works. To me, "god" is like gravity. The evidence of it is there for those who look hard enough, but that doesn't mean we will ever understand the why. To pretend you do know is heresy against life.

Posted by Trixi "I was an atheist at one time. And like many atheists, the issue of people believing in God bothered me greatly. What is it about atheists that we would spend so much time, attention, and energy refuting something that we don't believe even exists?!

That's actually a pretty good point, and it deserves an honest answer. Personally, I think the energy is well-spent because, in my opinion, incalculable harm has been done to the world and its people because of religion. I think we're all familiar with the Crusades, witch trials (In the US they were puny compared to Europe, where estimates run as high as a million people killed), and more recently, Islamic terrorism. But those are the obvious examples that any humane, thinking person is against. It's the little things that happen every day that chip away at reason and humanity.

Some examples: we have pizza for events at work a lot, but we NEVER have sausage or pepperoni because there are Muslims and Jews here, and they can't eat it; I saw someone holding a sign the other day saying "Pray to end abortion." I'm sure hundreds, if not thousands of people pray daily to end abortion. Has it made a lick of difference? No. I've also seen people post on Facebook to "pray for Japan." I guess the point is to make you feel like you're doing something instead of donating money or whatever; then there's religious-based opposition to things like birth control and sex education that isn't abstinence-only, and that opposition is by religious moderates, such as Catholic bishops telling Africans that condoms CAUSE AIDS; my son's school only serves fish in the cafeteria on Friday... ALL YEAR LONG!; and how about Sunday liquor laws? I can't buy a bottle of wine on Sunday at my grocery store because The Lord saith: Thou shalt not booze it up on Sunday.

And last, but certainly not least, is the existence of religious extremists. Al Qaeda, the Taliban, the Hutaree Militia, the Christian Identity movement, Israeli kibbutzim, &c. All of those exist because religious moderates allow them to exist.

Religion is like a birdcage in that it has many bars, and encircles us from every direction. You can't escape it in our society. it affects every aspect of our lives and could be the most important issue of our lifetime.

Small things like, you can't get married in a civil union in Canada without the word "god" invoked by the justice of the peace. Nearly every holiday is a christian holiday. Thumpers coming to my door.

But more importantly, the larger things:

The debate about medical ethics. Religion prevents a reasonable discussion about things like assisted suicide, stem cell research, abortion and on and on.

Raising our children in a school system hobbled by religious special interest groups - the intelligent design freaks and thier text book stickers, the catholic sex ed objectors who push abstinence only or no education at all, nativity scenes in public schools, removing reference to the armenian genocide from text books and curriculums because it offends a muslim parents group, splitting my tax dollars to fund catholic separate schools, and on and on.

The stifling of science, from Galileo to paleontology. Religious groups protesting the CERN and scientists afraid to offend the religious and lose thier funding.

Tax dollars being spent on religious charities - like 6 million dollars for 1000 homeless people in my home town, the bulk of which goes to christian groups. Funding proselytizing in the third world, when we could save the cost of the bibles and just give them clean water.

Small children sexually abused by religious institutions, the disgusting residential schools systems for natives, polygamist cults raping 12 year old celestial brides and claiming religious freedom as thier defence.


...and the really big issues:

The israel-palestine problem that continually threatens all of our security, islamic fundamentalist countries possessing (pakistan) or acquiring nuclear weapons with a stated intent to use them in a religious conflict (iran).

Religious terrorism and extremism on our shores. 9-11, london subway bombings, riots and murders for the publishing of fucking CARTOONS! Car bombers. Underwear bombers. Shoe bombers.

Religious genocides in the balkans and Rwanda and now the Sudan. Not to mention an entire history that offers no hope of compatable religious beliefs: the inquisition, the crusades on and on.


If we don't cast aside our differences and tribal hatred and superstitions, and find a way to live together in peace, these gods just might destroy us all.

I personally have worked along side of people from different religions, races, nationalities, and cultures with no problems or issues. If religion were to vanish tomorrow, we would have the same problems along different lines. I do not think its logical to think the eradication of all religions will turn the world into a peaceful place. One thing that helped unite many races was similar religious beliefs (think Christian, which is not limited to just rich white conservative males, believe it or not). You seem to just shift all the worlds problems onto Gods shoulders, instead of looking into the mirror. All the evil that has ocurred in the world was promoted with the best of intentions. Religion wasn't the reason, just the excuse.

Tek, all of these things that you have listed have, in fact happened... But this is a VAST minority of people who hold some form of faith in a higher power. This is not the norm. I am not sure if you think that every person who believes in a form of god does all of the horrible things you pointed out, but I can assure you than many of the faithful population does not condone violence. The main problem is, the really crazy minority tend to be the ones who get the air time. The main reason for this is(by my best guess, of course) because the people who are not part of that fundamental minority tend to not act out, they live their lives quietly.

Can you at least entertain the possibility that you might be basing a great deal of your opinions regarding the fact that a belief in god is the downfall of humanity on a minority of people or your own personal experiences? That being the case, is it not at least a little bit flawed to say that your desires are what is best for the entire planet and all of the people in it? To me, it seems like suggesting your way of thought should be shared by all is strikingly similar to what religions do(according to you). I am forced to appreciate the irony in that.

In my personal life experience, excluding actual clergy members, the people who are the most outwardly religious have always ended up being eventually exposed as liars, cheats, and/or criminals.

Posted by maypost Can you at least entertain the possibility that you might be basing a great deal of your opinions regarding the fact that a belief in god is the downfall of humanity on a minority of people or your own personal experiences?

no.
it's not just his personal experiences... this is an ongoing thing.

and i'll tell you this, that man is right on the fucking money with his post.

Posted by MutantMandias In my personal life experience, excluding actual clergy members, the people who are the most outwardly religious have always ended up being eventually exposed as liars, cheats, and/or criminals.

I like to call them hypochristians. Those are the ones i don't like. They sit there say "Fags are going to hell!" then the get their underage girlfriend pregnant and thats not a problem.

Sin is sin is sin. That said your boinkin a guy in the ass is no worse than me having tattoos. We all have sin. Everyone of us. No one is in a position to condemn anyone else. God does not hate fags.


Come Tek, please point out where in the bible that was written by goat herders a few thousand years ago where it says that, and I will remind you that it was written by man, who put his own fears and hatreds in it.

Posted by jeepdave Sin is sin is sin. That said your boinkin a guy in the ass is no worse than me having tattoos. We all have sin. Everyone of us. No one is in a position to condemn anyone else. God does not hate fags. Come Tek, please point out where in the bible that was written by goat herders a few thousand years ago where it says that, and I will remind you that it was written by man, who put his own fears and hatreds in it.

is that all you think of when you think homosexual?

and yes, the bible was written by goat fuckers 2000 years ago... boo hoo.

Posted by Samurai is that all you think of when you think homosexual?

I usually think of myself being banged by Brad Pitt and Ryan Reynolds. But thats just me.

Posted by Samurai is that all you think of when you think homosexual? and yes, the bible was written by goat fuckers 2000 years ago... boo hoo.

If you mean I don't think of them any different than anyone else, yeah that's all I think. I don't see them as being below me, or above me, in the grand scheme of things. They are people. Sinners. Just like everyone else. Some of them like parades, I think those are fuckin attention whores, just like KKK attention whores, and NAACP attention whores. Gay people are everywhere. Most of them don't make a fucking spectacle of it. Those are the ones I know.

Posted by Samurai is that all you think of when you think homosexual? and yes, the bible was written by goat fuckers 2000 years ago... boo hoo.

See, herein lies the problem. Some people, such as the one above, feel the need to insult religions instead of even attempting to argue civilly about them.

Samurai, if you don't want shit to hit the fan, at least make an effort to respect people's beliefs, So far we've respected yours.

Posted by HarvestmanMan See, herein lies the problem. Some people, such as the one above, feel the need to insult religions instead of even attempting to argue civilly about them. Samurai, if you don't want shit to hit the fan, at least make an effort to respect people's beliefs, So far we've respected yours.

You really don't get where he is coming from.

I hate to invoke Godwin here but. . .

Let's say you are Jewish, Wouldn't you have nothing but vile things to say about Nazis?

It is the same here.